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News from occupied Ukrainian territories (Crimea, Donbass, Lugansk) #3

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  • Originally posted by Grekules View Post
    PS: Crimea has never been occupied
    Hitler occupied it 1941-1944 and Putler 2014-2017.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Grekules View Post
      PS: Crimea has never been occupied, you got it wrong
      It has and it is occupied now. Get rid of your slavish patriotism and stop protect Putin's crimes.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
        If I'm been a russian and "promote russian national bravery" you could point out that I'm "a couch expert" and no every russian is a hero.
        well, if I were an Ukrainian and "promoted ukrainian national bravery" you could point out that I'm "a couch expert" and no every ukrainian is a hero
        Last edited by Zirelelil; 01-12-2017, 08:09 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
          Most slaves are not brave.
          Most of slaves are redy to die for interests of their masters.
          Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
          There almost no example of "slave army" in the history.
          soviet army, for example.
          Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
          For some extent you can call turkish janissary as an example of efficient "slave army" but there a problem, they weren't slaves. Quite a contrary. As for "slave mentality" it's also counterproductive for bravery.
          Anyone who are ready to fight for free for "interests of motherland" is a slave. Patriot is a state's leashed cur dog.
          Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
          Again, germans. They fought with romans pretty well. And they fought FOR freedom. Russians in 1812 also fought for freedom against Napoleon and in WWII against literal enslavement and annihilation. In short, slaves are bad soldiers, the free folk - yes.
          Slaves were fighting for the freedom without knowing they are slaves...
          There's a good lyrics:

          И было так: четыре года
          В грязи, в крови, в огне пальбы
          Рабы сражались за свободу,
          Не зная, что они - рабы.
          А впрочем - зная. Вой снарядов
          И взрывы бомб не так страшны,
          Как меткий взгляд заградотрядов,
          В тебя упертый со спины.
          И было ведомо солдатам,
          Из дома вырванным войной,
          Что города берутся - к датам.
          А потому - любой ценой.
          Не пасовал пред вражьим станом,
          Но опускал покорно взор
          Пред особистом-капитаном
          Отважный боевой майор.
          И генералам, осужденным
          В конце тридцатых без вины,
          А после вдруг освобожденным
          Хозяином для нужд войны,
          Не знать, конечно, было б странно,
          Имея даже штат и штаб,
          Что раб, по прихоти тирана
          Возвышенный - все тот же раб.
          Так значит, ведали. И все же,
          Себя и прочих не щадя,
          Сражались, лезли вон из кожи,
          Спасая задницу вождя.
          Снося бездарность поражений,
          Где миллионы гибли зря,
          А вышедшим из окружений
          Светил расстрел иль лагеря,
          Безропотно терпя такое,
          Чего б терпеть не стали псы,
          Чтоб вождь рябой с сухой рукою
          Лукаво щерился в усы.
          Зачем, зачем, чего же ради -
          Чтоб говорить бояться вслух?
          Чтоб в полумертвом Ленинграде
          От ожиренья Жданов пух?
          Чтоб в нищих селах, все отдавших,
          Впрягались женщины в ярмо?
          Чтоб детям без вести пропавших
          Носить предателей клеймо?
          Ах, если б это было просто -
          В той бойне выбрать верный флаг!
          Но нет, идеи Холокоста
          Ничуть не лучше, чем ГУЛАГ.
          У тех - все то же было рабство,
          А не пропагандистский рай.
          Свобода, равенство и братство...
          Свободный труд. Arbeit macht frei.
          И неизменны возраженья,
          Что, дескать, основная часть
          Из воевавших шла в сраженья
          Не за советскую-де власть,
          Мол, защищали не колхозы
          И кровопийцу-подлеца,
          А дом, семью и три березы,
          Посаженных рукой отца...
          Но отчего же половодьем
          Вослед победе в той войне
          Война со сталинским отродьем
          Не прокатилась по стране?
          Садили в небеса патроны,
          Бурлил ликующий поток,
          Но вскоре - новые вагоны
          Везли их дальше на восток.
          И те, кого вела отвага,
          Кто встал стеною у Москвы -
          За проволоками ГУЛАГа
          Поднять не смели головы.
          Победа... Сделал дело - в стойло!
          Свобода... Северная даль.
          Сорокаградусное пойло,
          Из меди крашеной медаль.
          Когда б и впрямь они парадом
          Освободителей прошли,
          То в грязь со свастиками рядом
          И звезды б красные легли.
          Пусть обуха не сломишь плетью,
          Однако армия - не плеть!
          Тому назад уж полстолетья
          Режим кровавый мог истлеть.
          И все ж пришел конец запретам,
          Но, те же лозунги крича,
          Плетется дряхлый раб с портретом
          Того же горца-усача.
          Он страшно недоволен строем,
          Трехцветным флагом и гербом...
          Раб тоже может быть героем,
          Но все ж останется рабом.
          И что ж мы празднуем в угоду
          Им всем девятого числа?
          Тот выиграл, кто обрел свободу.
          Ну что же, Дойчланд - обрела.
          А нас свобода только дразнит,
          А мы - столетьями в плену...
          На нашей улице - не праздник.
          Мы проиграли ту войну.

          Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
          Only if your motherland isn't the USA, you forget.
          I'm not from USA, I think you know... And I do not support USA because of patriotism. I support it as long as it serves my aims somehow. My aims and my wishes are above interests of any country or nation for me.

          Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
          I agree, but on the "jumping video" among captured ukrainian soldiers were at least several volunteers from "nazi battallions". And they jumped as well as others regular soldiers. The inductees, at general, don't want to fight. The DNR/LNR have only volunteers (and russian regular soldiers are volunteers too).
          How can you know they are from "nazi battalions"? Also jumping is an act of pride which means they aren't moskals

          Another example of Ukrainian bravery is Madan. They were beating the shit out of "Berkut" and burning them. And made revolution. Whilst Russian population can do nothing to botox fuhrer. So, generally Ukrainians are braver than Russians.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by OYUSHMINALD View Post
            That's time to change it to "of Ukraine"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
              If your argument is useless why do you use it? Are Ukrainians immune to the ad hominem argument? Are they prohibited to use it? What example are you talking about? Why should you be Russian to be called 'a couch expert'. As for me you are the greatest example of Ukrainian 'couch expert'.
              I think you hadn't understood me. If I promoted "russian national bravery" as a russian then your argument, that I'm not a hero myself would be relevant. But I'm ukrainian and don't "promote" ukrainian bravery.

              И по-русски, чтобы не было дальнейших непоняток. Если бы я "продвигал" идею о русской национальной храбрости БУДУЧИ РУССКИМ, а сам при этом храбростью не отличался - да, твой аргумент, что я "диванный воин" был бы к месту, хотя бы отчасти. Но я украинец. И даже признаюсь в некоторой трусости. Таким образом, я еще и подтверждаю идею "украинской национальной трусости" (что, конечно, не так, ибо аргумент "at hominem" когда речь идет о объективных/общих вещах вообще не к месту. он вообще редко к месту).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Zirelelil View Post
                soviet army, for example.
                I wonder, are your ancestors fought against nazi or joined them? From what you said I conclude, that they were collaborators.

                Originally posted by Zirelelil View Post
                Anyone who are ready to fight for free for "interests of motherland" is a slave. Patriot is a state's leashed cur dog.
                Again, are the GIs who died (bravely!) on Iwo Jima or Omaha beach were slaves? If so, you are offending your masters!

                Originally posted by Zirelelil View Post
                How can you know they are from "nazi battalions"?
                Some of them were exposed on the video. Or afterwards it was confirmed by ukrainian media. I don't remember for sure, to be honest.

                Originally posted by Zirelelil View Post
                Another example of Ukrainian bravery is Madan. They were beating the shit out of "Berkut" and burning them. And made revolution. Whilst Russian population can do nothing to botox fuhrer. So, generally Ukrainians are braver than Russians.
                They hadn't risked much for most of the time. Yes, in the end, there were several examples of definite bravery, but by your own logic, it were slave acts.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                  I think you hadn't understood me. If I promoted "russian national bravery" as a russian then your argument, that I'm not a hero myself would be relevant. But I'm ukrainian and don't "promote" ukrainian bravery.
                  What argument? Just in case, if you didn't understand what I said, you are a typical example of a 'couch expert'. And that doesn't depend on who you are: Ukrainian, Russian or Gypsy. Usually I don't pay attention to the nationality but to the personality.

                  Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                  И по-русски, чтобы не было дальнейших непоняток. Если бы я "продвигал" идею о русской национальной храбрости БУДУЧИ РУССКИМ, а сам при этом храбростью не отличался - да, твой аргумент, что я "диванный воин" был бы к месту, хотя бы отчасти. Но я украинец. И даже признаюсь в некоторой трусости. Таким образом, я еще и подтверждаю идею "украинской национальной трусости" (что, конечно, не так, ибо аргумент "at hominem" когда речь идет о объективных/общих вещах вообще не к месту. он вообще редко к месту).
                  It would be better if you wrote that in Ukrainian.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                    I wonder, are your ancestors fought against nazi or joined them? From what you said I conclude, that they were collaborators.
                    I know only one who did (my great-grandfather). He was saying that he had been sitting in a trench most of the time whilst youngsters were running forward with shouting "for Stalin!" and were getting shot in mass, that he considered as a folly. And he never regarded that war as something worthwhile to celebrate.
                    But my opinion would be the same in any case.
                    Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                    Again, are the GIs who died (bravely!) on Iwo Jima or Omaha beach were slaves? If so, you are offending your masters!
                    Who are "Gls", japanese or americans? And I have no masters and can offend anyone

                    Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                    Some of them were exposed on the video.
                    well, you barely know "nazi battalions" members by sight...

                    Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                    They hadn't risked much for most of the time. Yes, in the end, there were several examples of definite bravery,
                    need not risk all the time...

                    Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                    but by your own logic, it were slave acts.
                    to serve the government is slavish, to overthrow it is not.
                    Last edited by Zirelelil; 01-12-2017, 09:20 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                      What argument? Just in case, if you didn't understand what I said, you are a typical example of a 'couch expert'. And that doesn't depend on who you are: Ukrainian, Russian or Gypsy. Usually I don't pay attention to the nationality but to the personality.
                      Oh, come on! I'm a lawyer, so what, I can talk only about law issues and of nothing else? I dare to say, that in some cases I better understand some other issues than those related to law. I can't say that I'm an expert in geopolitical issues and have an undisputed opinion in this matter (as, for example, Zirelelil can), but I can express my opinion and even support it by some facts, which "your folks" seldom bother to do.

                      Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                      It would be better if you wrote that in Ukrainian.
                      For a couple of users? Despite all Zirelelil arguments that Ukrainian and Russian languages have the same "international value" I fear, that he would have some difficulties to understand what I would write in Ukrainian.
                      Last edited by fox_aka_fox; 01-12-2017, 10:19 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Zirelelil View Post
                        I know only one who did (my great-grandfather). He was saying that he had been sitting in a trench most of the time whilst youngsters were running forward with shouting "for Stalin!" and were getting shot in mass, that he considered as a folly. And he never regarded that war as something worthwhile to celebrate.
                        But, essentially, he was just another slave, who fought for his master's Stalin power? Of course, it would be better if he just surrendered as many other "non-slaves" red army soldiers? I just remembered one "Stalin's quote" (in reality it's not his phrase, however). "You must be a very brave man to be a coward in the Red Army". I give this argument for you, it somehow supports your point. And I wonder, how you didn't remember the Spartak's slave army? It's a decent example of efficient and brave slave army and a good argument against me.

                        Originally posted by Zirelelil View Post
                        Who are "Gls", japanese or americans? And I have no masters and can offend anyone
                        You could guess, it's nickname for your masters, american soldiers. They claim that they fought for their motherland. Even those, who fought in Vietnam and Iraq often say so.

                        Originally posted by Zirelelil View Post
                        well, you barely know "nazi battalions" members by sight...
                        They had the documents or they gave the interview afterward they had been freed. It doesn't matter even if there weren't volunteers. They were ukrainians and they had jumped, Period.

                        Originally posted by Zirelelil View Post
                        need not risk all the time...
                        How can you be brave without the risk?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                          For a couple of users? Despite all Zirelelil arguments that Ukrainian and Russian languages have the same "international value" I fear, that he would have some difficulties to understand what I would write in Ukrainian.
                          Ukrainian is my native language. I think it would be easier for me to grasp what you want to say if you said that in Ukrainian than in Russian. To be honest I couldn't even imagine that a Ukrainian will refuse to express his thought to other Ukrainian in Ukrainian language. (Are you really Ukrainian?). And what's more surprising is that you speak Russian despite the fact that not more than a couple of users understand it here ...

                          Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                          Oh, come on! I'm a lawyer, so what, I can talk only about law issues and of nothing else? I dare to say, that in some cases I better understand some other issues than those related to law. I can't say that I'm an expert in geopolitical issues and have an undisputed opinion in this matter (as, for example, Zirelelil can), but I can express my opinion and even support it by some facts, which "your folks" seldom bother to do.
                          It seems you don't remember what we are talking about ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                            Ukrainian is my native language. I think it would be easier for me to grasp what you want to say if you said that in Ukrainian than in Russian. To be honest I couldn't even imagine that a Ukrainian will refuse to express his thought to other Ukrainian in Ukrainian language. (Are you really Ukrainian?). And what's more surprising is that you speak Russian despite the fact that not more than a couple of users understand it here ....
                            Yes, maybe your native. But who other there can speak Ukrainian? A couple of people (me included)? And when from time to time some "vatnik" burst here with his russian-language posts at least the half of "topic participants" can understand him (some 4-6 people, we are a small group). So, you can doubt that I'm ukrainian or that I know Ukrainian language, but russian would be more useful nevertheless. And I know Ukrainian, use it all the time at work and with ukrainian-speakers. But I don't like it. So, as far as I can use my (poor) English, I prefer it. I went here not to practice my already pretty well Russian or Ukrainian.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                              For a couple of users? Despite all Zirelelil arguments that Ukrainian and Russian languages have the same "international value" I fear, that he would have some difficulties to understand what I would write in Ukrainian.
                              I was speaking they both hadn't it.
                              And there are readonly users on here who can't speak Russian either.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                                Yes, maybe your native.
                                Not may be. I am.

                                Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                                But who other there can speak Ukrainian? A couple of people (me included)? And when from time to time some "vatnik" burst here with his russian-language posts at least the half of "topic participants" can understand him (some 4-6 people, we are a small group). So, you can doubt that I'm ukrainian or that I know Ukrainian language, but russian would be more useful nevertheless. And I know Ukrainian, use it all the time at work and with ukrainian-speakers. But I don't like it. So, as far as I can use my (poor) English, I prefer it. I went here not to practice my already pretty well Russian or Ukrainian.
                                Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                                But who other there can speak Ukrainian? A couple of people (me included)?
                                The same can be said about Russian.

                                Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                                And when from time to time some "vatnik" burst here with his russian-language posts at least the half of "topic participants" can understand him (some 4-6 people, we are a small group).
                                There are other readers who don't understand Russian but nevetherless they want to know what those 'vatnik' are saying. So I think those vatniks should speak English if they want to be heard.

                                Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                                And I know Ukrainian, use it all the time at work and with ukrainian-speakers. But I don't like it. So, as far as I can use my (poor) English, I prefer it. I went here not to practice my already pretty well Russian or Ukrainian.
                                That would be great if you keep practicing English and typing your messages in English. As you know this is a forum for english-speaking and there are special sections for those who want to practice other languages. Besides I'm sure there are those here who doesn't like Russian ...

                                Comment

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