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  • #61
    Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

    According to newsweek minimal wage in Ukraine is the lowest in Europe, I've found it's 3200 hryvnias? 100 $, cool, keep repeating yourself it's a level fo uk secretary, let me add that Germans ave 1500 euro of minimal wage.
    Average wage in Ukraine is about 6700 hryvnia?
    who said about average wages? i just reread my post - no word about the average wages there. i was talking about western companies and wages there, and yes i 'don't think', i know it for sure what people earn there

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    • #62
      Well ukranians can now go and work for german minimal wage more easil.

      Sure expansion of europe is basically really a benefit for German companies and shitty italian banks but individuals from poorer countries can have benefit from it as well
      Why is it called a tourist season if we're not supposed to hunt them?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

        Well she thinks Ukrainians earn same as UK secretaries, you know But I suppose all slaves are brainwashed like this, otherwise they'd be seriosuly pissed off.
        The problem is she doesn't think. Unfortunately, she's rather stupid. She is pro-Westernization but against multiculturalism (supposedly). Anyone who holds this contradiction as a belief structure is highly irrational.

        The other guy is just a troll and not worth the time. At least, she means well but is brainwashed because of what's happened in Ukraine. I learned there's a 'mix' of opinions and viewpoints in Ukraine from talking to them... meeting them on vk and elsewhere so there's a lot of pro-Western viewpoints but also smart people who don't trust this 'move to the West.' There's no choice, that's the point. No lesser evil. This is the foolish mindset that politicians sell to make sure you vote for one of them when there's really no choice at all.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Phdintho1
          1) Westernization is quite contrary to multiculturism because implies western culture all around the world. Hence, all's rational.

          2)If this is about me, I'm not a troll >_> ...depends on which sort of posts you consider as a trolling though...

          Every smart person is always pro-West. In more or less extent but this is the rule.

          so naive...
          1) Western /Westernized countries promote/support globalization and thus, support and promote multiculturalism. Saying they run contrary to multiculturalism doesn't hold water and is frankly, a ridiculous and false assertion.
          2) you constantly make ridiculous arguments and claims while provoking certain posters (not me...as I really don't care for your stupid theories/viewpoints).
          Gonna ignore your idiotic comments from now on. You're highly predictable anyway so hopefully, other posters will get the hint and ignore you as well.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Al_ice View Post

            why you see it as enslavement? elaborate

            i am far from naive. But I am not an idealist like you, and understand that the ideal model of the world does not exist, if you choose between the western model and the neo-soviet one, then the western one is the lesser evil. i do not like many things that west currently possesses and what actually destroys it. So i am for clever westernization. eg i do not like the idea of multiculturalism with all the consequences, so i'd better stick to homogeneous country like we always had here, and many other things i do not like too. Now feel free to share your ideas why you think the western model is negative.

            eurovision. explain what's bad, it's always useful to know what other people think, I can't read minds. Though i guess one of your arguments would - the cost of hosting eurovision in a country with a lot pf problems and a war on the east

            it's irrelevant. in fact it's your reply to another poster here. anyway i did not keep track of your posts on forums
            why you see it as enslavement? elaborate You really have to ask this question? You have no problem in your country's government giving up its sovereignty? Besides/after the coup of the previous regime, U.S./Western allies conspired and decided who would be the choice for your leader(s) and administration. It was even leaked as a recording. The top levels of government aren't even ethnic Ukrainian. The Western governments not only disrespected your country's citizens but treat you all as sheeple that can be controlled and influenced to vote/select parties/politicians of their choosing/favour. This led to practically half of the country rejecting this development leading to the hostilities and conflict that has resulted in the murder/injury of many of your countrymen on both sides. Russia capitalized on the conflict by funding the other 'section(s)' (half?) of the country and providing/securing it with weapons/ammo etc.

            The country is enslaved because Ukraine is no longer sovereign. It's run by politicians who are puppets to the Western powers and receive (directly or indirectly) money either by these powers or via oligarchs who also have 'deals' with said powers through corporations and corporate holdings. It's all about money, geopolitical conflicts and 'being bought and sold' while keeping up appearances. Have you not heard of the expression, 'new boss, same as the old boss?' That can never be good for a country even if you think more Ukrainians can afford vacations and they can feel like they're more on par with European countries, can buy more material possessions and thus, 'feel satisfied and happy' despite the country being enslaved by Elite/foreign entities.


            But I am not an idealist like you...So i am for clever westernization. ???!?!? Define 'clever westernization.' Where can I read up on that?
            I'm not sure why idealism is a bad thing but you apparently think so. I dispute your claim that you are not naiive. You sound very naiive. Whatever you think, for e.g. that Ukraine can or will avoid multiculturalism....good luck. With the EU deals and aligning itself with westernized globalization, they will be eventually adhering to the 'multiculturalism transformation.' The EU will need areas/space in which to place their 'refugees.' In supporting Westernization, you support it all, not just what you prefer or parts you favour.

            Eurovision is bad because it's supported and funded by shady, corporate globalists (countries which have governments who support the neo-Marxist agenda). The intent is not music or art but propaganda and influencing (read: brainwashing) young minds....I think that's disingenuous but apparently you have no problem with lacking ethics or perhaps, you're just so blindly naiive that you have no idea what's going on.
            Last edited by Tux1; 05-18-2017, 03:41 PM.

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            • #66
              Ukraine was last year. Move on, guys ! Stop hunting for topics with Ukraine or Russia in it !

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Tux1 View Post

                Eurovision is bad because it's supported and funded by shady, corporate globalists (countries which have governments who support the neo-Marxist agenda). The intent is not music or art but propaganda and influencing (read: brainwashing) young minds....I think that's disingenuous but apparently you have no problem with lacking ethics or perhaps, you're just so blindly naiive that you have no idea what's going on.

                never thought about Eurovision from this perspective really. well I just never thought about it at all.
                ok i may be pretty ignorant in all these political games as i've always been apolitical and did not try to figure out how it all works

                most disturbing for me from all you wrote is this: 'With the EU deals and aligning itself with westernized globalization, they will be eventually adhering to the 'multiculturalism transformation.' The EU will need areas/space in which to place their 'refugees.' In supporting Westernization, you support it all, not just what you prefer or parts you favour.'
                What solution you see as best for Ukraine then?
                Let's imagine that you are ukrainian and live here, you have no influence to big politics and you're just immersed in your work, your life and family. your actions?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Tux1 View Post
                  Eurovision is bad because it's supported and funded by shady, corporate globalists (countries which have governments who support the neo-Marxist agenda).
                  The European Broadcast Union consists of the public broadcasters of all European countries (except Liechtenstein which hasn't got one) and as such what you are saying is that all the diverse European governments from Portugal to Norway to Ukraine to Russia all have a common evil agenda. Even by the standards of your conspiracy theories that's pretty nutty.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Al_ice View Post
                    never thought about Eurovision from this perspective really. well I just never thought about it at all.
                    ok i may be pretty ignorant in all these political games as i've always been apolitical and did not try to figure out how it all works

                    most disturbing for me from all you wrote is this: 'With the EU deals and aligning itself with westernized globalization, they will be eventually adhering to the 'multiculturalism transformation.' The EU will need areas/space in which to place their 'refugees.' In supporting Westernization, you support it all, not just what you prefer or parts you favour.'
                    What solution you see as best for Ukraine then?
                    Let's imagine that you are ukrainian and live here, you have no influence to big politics and you're just immersed in your work, your life and family. your actions?
                    Good question and I have even been asked by friends who have discussed the topic, with me, 'what should we do?' Imho, Ukrainians have no choice but to BECOME POLITICAL. At the very least, become informed and vote (or not vote), accordingly. Ironically, these political problems are not so different as other countries, in particular the Western democracy countries (you admire). Probably the main difference is the influence from the Soviet Union which has 'held it back.' But, other countries are in trouble despite what citizens there may say and what you see. So, I never said that Ukrainians should not want to leave the worst aspects of the FSU behind and Russia's influence but I suggest to only see 'the positives' is naiive.

                    What would I do as a Ukrainian? As I said, I think political activism is essential there even if you (don't like politics) it. How can things change if you are neutral or do nothing? The Elites/leaders want you to be sheeple, to do nothing and be robots. If you are complacent in being controlled, then what happens to you will depend on what their intentions/goals are (for themselves). For e.g., if you just want to make money, have a good standard of living and be happy, you won't necessarily be in control to make that happen. Perhaps, to an extent, but if TPTB want your country to collapse, then they will change conditions so that can happen. Which brings me to my next point to be on topic but also provide you an example.

                    "Why is eurovision bad?' you asked? Well, it's not like there are no perspectives or questions about it being propaganda. It also costs Ukrainians a lot of money. Shouldn't this money be for YOU and your fellow citizens? If you want 'Western style' conditions, isn't it part of the society in which the government helps people who are struggling (in the way of social services) by providing for them? Ukraine is practically broke but somehow found the funds to finance this propaganda farce. Even if you refuse to believe it's propaganda, it's still an argument I suggest you cannot refute. The current government which promises the people for reforms and to (not waste money, hopefully) squander away $ is wasting it to fund a 'song competition' (that just happens to be filled with political conflict every year, it seems). Whether it is spent on funding military conflict or song contests, it doesn't seem like a humanistic way of improving Ukraine. That's just how I see it, though. Perhaps other Ukrainians will agree when they think about it?
                    http://www.op.se/opinion/ledare/euro...-av-propaganda
                    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1524...ropaganda.html
                    http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/18200

                    https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/05/16/...-web-companies
                    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-1...-its-gold-gone
                    http://americanfreepress.net/massive...ts-in-ukraine/
                    https://www.sprottmoney.com/Blog/cha...oney-news.html
                    http://www.strategic-culture.org/new...aine-gold.html
                    https://www.caseyresearch.com/gsd/ed...or-lead-bricks

                    http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...st-explains-15
                    http://escreporter.com/ukraine-estim...-2017-hosting/
                    https://www.unian.info/society/13508...urovision.html

                    http://z-news.link/ukrainians-are-ou...ision-in-kiev/

                    ““Eurovision” will cost Ukraine two times more expensive than Sweden.

                    Ukraine will spend around 30 million euros for the “Eurovision 2017” in Kiev. This figure has recently become the subject of intense discussion in social networks.
                    Especially when it turned out that it is more expensive than the competition in prosperous Sweden last year.”
                    https://ukrhotnews.com/2017/04/27/to...ental-housing/

                    The other links I included is about the mysterious disappearance of Ukraine's gold reserves. Perhaps you and murcat can explain to me where they went? The theory that seems to be published the most and makes most sense (to me, anyway) is that it was shipped off to the U.S. It just so happens to disappear after the West interfered in the Ukraine 'revolution/rebellion' and overthrow of Yanukovych. The significance of this is that gold is considered by many to be a hedge against deterioration in value of a country's fiat (i.e. currency) money and that would probably be useful to a country like Ukraine. Except, unfortunately, it disappeared in a short time and the irony of the actual time it did, should alarm a lot of people who live there or who still want to live there. I think it's sad if people just shrug things off with plans to move/emigrate or if they think it doesn't matter because 'these things happen all the time there' (i.e. theft, corruption etc.). The difference is that 'outsiders/foreigners' participated or outright engineered the theft. And officials there let it happen. I don't think it was on the front pages of news there and that should tell you something.


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                    • #70
                      Ukraine absolutely needs to invest in events like the ESC if it wants to become an attractive tourist destination, the boost provided by improved reputation easily offsets the fairly modest costs related to hosting the events. Secondly it also improves the domestic self-confidence and know-how.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Tux1 View Post

                        If I don't adhere and announce the same 'pro-Western' spiel that you do, that means I'm a 'vatnik', Putinbot (except, I'm not Russian. Can I still be one, though?), right? It's convenient to forget that I have criticized Putin, neo-Soviet style of modern Russia, declared empathy for ordinary Russians and stated that they are neglected. How many vatkniks say the same? Let me guess what the answer is? ZERO?
                        well, then you are a half-vatnik ))) because you still perceive the western world as something dangerous, awful , that is not worth attention, just like russian vatniks do )))

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Tux1 View Post
                          Good question and I have even been asked by friends who have discussed the topic, with me, 'what should we do?'..
                          thanks for the answers & links.

                          Originally posted by Tux1 View Post
                          The other links I included is about the mysterious disappearance of Ukraine's gold reserves. Perhaps you and murcat can explain to me where they went?
                          it's not me. I swear I did not take it!

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                          • #73
                            I think Bulgaria should have won
                            http://www.cinemadoor.com/images/tum...odpvo15001.gif

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Al_ice View Post

                              who said about average wages? i just reread my post - no word about the average wages there. i was talking about western companies and wages there, and yes i 'don't think', i know it for sure what people earn there
                              So you just mean immigration? Well, sure it will be easier for Ukrainians once they enter EU, but that's not really the point I've made in my first post.
                              http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20100803203515

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Phdintho1
                                right back at ya

                                No way!

                                All normal people accept it. And only primitive ones put some social shit above western values.

                                taking refugees is not western values.

                                Nothing like that is gonna happen. The world will be westernized. And western values are clearly contrary to islam.


                                Relatively small... well, let's say in other way: insignificant.

                                I don't care about your jobs situation, actually.

                                firstly you should take western values and respect freedom, and then deal with economical crap.
                                What a rubbish [2]. Your standards of normal do not intrest me much. As for taking refugees of course it's western values, the morons from EU Commision also western politicians threaten with sanctions to Poland for not obeying "western values" which basically means not taking refugees.
                                Your prophecies do not intrest me too moron, the world might as well be islamized if people do not react on time or leftist morons will keep them in denial.
                                We do not need to learn freedom from western idiots, Poland had first Constitution in Europe, in the times of thirty years war in the west we've had relligious freedom and tolerance for all faiths since like 50 years already. When Europe was ruled by totalitarian idiots, Polish nobility was enjoying almost democratic standards including legal right to disobey the king. So stop teaching me about freedom, we have no complex of any kind when it comes to it.
                                Last edited by jordan_rudess; 05-19-2017, 10:50 PM.
                                http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20100803203515

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