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  • Turkey's opposition

    ....is still alive?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/w...-istanbul.html
    In dir muß brennen, was du in anderen entzünden willst. What you wish to kindle in others must burn within yourself. [Aurelius]

  • #2
    Of course, it's an almost evenly split country. In Istanbul and elsewhere on the coast one can see the opposition everywhere. The question is rather what they can and should do with Erdogan controlling the state structures.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
      On life support it seems. The cancer of Islam has metastasized and infiltrated all parts of Turkey and Turkish society.

      The most important institution which protected Turkish society - the military - has been castrated and decapitated. It seems also that businesses are falling into the hands of Islamist cronies of the president there.

      The main damage has already been done. A Turk I had chatted with some years ago warned me about letting any Islamist immigrants into places like Europe and Australia and then proceeded to tell me how they play the infiltration game - as applicable to Turkey. Doing it slowly one step at a time.

      What this person had told me has come to pass. Yes, Islamists are now in control of much of government structures, business and education in Turkey.

      The West had a role to play in all this - they bought into the Islamist lies and bullshit about "moderate Islam" and gave Erdogan free reign in the 2000s to step by step Islamise the country under the premise of "being democratic". Europe had also bought into the bullshit that the Islamist government in power in Turkey actually wanted to join the EU.

      Yes, the Islamists are in control of things and putting their woefully underqualified people into positions of control. That change is beginning to become generational.

      There are so many stresses within Turkey - Secular verses Religious, Nationalist verses pluralistic secular and of course ethnic tensions simmering under the surface with Kurds and other groups. The likely catalyst for conflict might ultimately economic, Turkey's economy looks very much like a Potemkin village - a couple of infrastructure projects they show off to the foreign press but massive debt and overall corruption behind the facade of statistical lying.

      I suspect that Islamisation has gone so far that the patient on life support has just about expired. Now two things are very possible - the patient will slowly slip away into a coma and Turkey will become yet just another Islamofascist shithole in the Middle East or the patient will convulse in agony and die a terrible death.

      The second is by far the more likely option. There's very little there to stop a freefall into the sort of situation we have seen in Syria. Any such civil war would be much bigger and far more brutal than that in Syria.

      Even if Turkey fades away into becoming a complete Islamic shithole, the suffering of the people there is not going to end simply like that. Given Erdogan's personality and his expressed love for things such as the death penalty as well has his love for mass arrest, the next terrifying step in all this is concentration camps that function as death camps. Turkey already has a recent historical background for which they are totally unapologetic about for doing this sort of thing - mass exterminations of Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks at the end of the Ottoman period.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
        Of course, it's an almost evenly split country. In Istanbul and elsewhere on the coast one can see the opposition everywhere. The question is rather what they can and should do with Erdogan controlling the state structures.
        Can you suggest how to remove the infiltration of Islamists into Turkish state structures, or is this a terminal sickness for Turkey brought on in part by Islamic apologists cheering on a "moderate" Islamic regime in Turkey?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
          Of course, it's an almost evenly split country. In Istanbul and elsewhere on the coast one can see the opposition everywhere.
          and despite that they feel the need to make such a desperate march to show that they are still there. At least such things are still possible in Turkey.
          Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
          The question is rather what they can and should do with Erdogan controlling the state structures.
          I'm afraid it is not much. The society is already in fear and they spy on eachother, scared to be the next one who loses the job and is blamed as Gulenist - what means the same like dying a social death even when they are not jailed. Nobody will hire them again, nobody will regularly meet them - in fear to get called a Gulenist as well.

          Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
          Now two things are very possible - the patient will slowly slip away into a coma and Turkey will become yet just another Islamofascist shithole in the Middle East or the patient will convulse in agony and die a terrible death.
          I can't see the difference between these two options. It is just the question if Turkey dies with or without a civil war.

          Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
          Given Erdogan's personality and his expressed love for things such as the death penalty as well has his love for mass arrest,
          the next step can be also a general travel ban - in case those leaving the country should rise in numbers tremendously. Especially for those people with a higher education. Erdogan already fired 10 000's teacher, there must be a problem already. And closing the borders to hold people inside is what usually happens at the beginning of dictatorships.

          It has eventually already started. I have seen already several reports about the new sort of Turkish immigrants. Many of them must leave Turkey secretely and Turkey is pissed off that Germany gives them asylum .
          Unfortunately they are not 100% safe here, because there are too many Erdogan fanboys in Germany .
          Can Dündar e.g. lives in Berlin but rather avoids taxis.....too many Turks are taxi drivers and he can not take a taxi safely.

          Here is one of those reports from today:
          http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Mehr-als-...e19935839.html
          Since last year about 8000 Turks asked for political asylum in Germany.
          Last edited by Suna123; 07-14-2017, 05:47 PM.
          In dir muß brennen, was du in anderen entzünden willst. What you wish to kindle in others must burn within yourself. [Aurelius]

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
            The West had a role to play in all this - they bought into the Islamist lies and bullshit about "moderate Islam" and gave Erdogan free reign in the 2000s to step by step Islamise the country under the premise of "being democratic". Europe had also bought into the bullshit that the Islamist government in power in Turkey actually wanted to join the EU.
            yes - it was a huge mistake. It shows that democracy is not always a good choice.
            In dir muß brennen, was du in anderen entzünden willst. What you wish to kindle in others must burn within yourself. [Aurelius]

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Suna123 View Post

              yes - it was a huge mistake. It shows that democracy is not always a good choice.
              Democracy is a good choice - only when those who are elected are willing to adhere to the democratic system and relinquish power at the ballot box and to conduct free and fair elections.

              The military in Turkey were the final guarantor of the democratic system in Turkey, yet the West were complacent when the Turkish military were piece by piece weakened and then in a position where they were unable to counter an Islamist group who were definitely not democratic nor genuinely respected the democratic system.

              Erdogan had already stated it very clearly back in the 1990s the contempt he felt for democracy and the ballot box:

              Democracy is like a train. When you reach your destination you get off.
              The West should have realised even 10 years ago that their flirtation with the notion that Islam and democracy was a dangerous and flawed idea - particularly in the case of Turkey. Erdogan was saying things like this back in 2007.

              There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. There is only Islam.
              Here's a video from 5 years ago which spells it out very clearly what Erdogan is seeking.





              All those fanboys for "moderate Islam" are presently very silent about Erdogan - especially "interesting" when they were forming such a fan squad for him in the 2000s and even beyond.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
                I'm afraid it is not much. The society is already in fear and they spy on eachother, scared to be the next one who loses the job and is blamed as Gulenist - what means the same like dying a social death even when they are not jailed. Nobody will hire them again, nobody will regularly meet them - in fear to get called a Gulenist as well.
                It's not like that, maybe somewhere deep in Anatolia but not in the opposition strongholds. Erdogan's popular support has its boundaries, and in many places those boundaries aren't very high at all.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  Of course, it's an almost evenly split country. In Istanbul and elsewhere on the coast one can see the opposition everywhere. The question is rather what they can and should do with Erdogan controlling the state structures.
                  They should band together, go to Ankara and hang him. Simple.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JulianaTuhi View Post
                    They should band together, go to Ankara and hang him. Simple.
                    And Turkey's mutation to Syria starts.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by toor0 View Post
                      And Turkey's mutation to Syria starts.
                      I suspect that it Turkey has been evolving towards Syria Mark 2.0 for quite some time now... however, violence like that would cause Syria 2.0 to become truly live and a reality.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post

                        The main damage has already been done. A Turk I had chatted with some years ago warned me about letting any Islamist immigrants into places like Europe and Australia and then proceeded to tell me how they play the infiltration game - as applicable to Turkey. Doing it slowly one step at a time.
                        Shit, the German governments of the last 30-40 years didn't chat with your Turkish friend. And now we have the problem of hundred thousands follower of Erdogan, ten thousands of radicals muslim, and thousands of potential islamic terrorists.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JulianaTuhi View Post
                          They should band together, go to Ankara and hang him. Simple.

                          how very..
                          bolshevik
                          Why is it called a tourist season if we're not supposed to hunt them?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by grgur View Post
                            how very..
                            bolshevik
                            Turkey right now mirrors a lot of what the Soviet Union was like in the 20s and early 30s. The process of spreading worldwide a cultist ideology - Islam, relative though fragile mirage-like prosperity and economic liberalisation not too far from the NEP period, a former ally now ideological foe who is the blame for every and any "enemy" - Gulen, the beginnings of real state terror in the form of mass arrests and other persecution, filling up the military and the bureaucracy with ideological brownnosers, a nascent military complex, intervention in external armed conflicts...

                            The list goes on.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Turkey right now mirrors a lot of what Russia is like right now. With the Stalinist Soviet Union it has little to do.

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