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  • #46
    "you are pointing at Catalonia"

    DON'T CONFUSE CATALONIA WITH SEPARATISTS, PLEASE.

    https://ep00.epimg.net/elpais/imagen...bum_normal.jpg

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    • #47
      Originally posted by -Lauri-



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      • #48
        Originally posted by sweet_tears View Post
        @Eimeric

        1) There was a specific incident: illegal referendum. It took place in different cities just like many demonstrations that end up wrong do.
        2) Policemen do not have to come to other places in Spain because they are already numerous enough, as we don’t have our own regional police.
        3) Violence against people of all ages who just want to express a political feeling is what we’re talking about. Whether they came out to vote in an extra official poll or to hold signs against the government is irrelevant.
        4) The Spanish government and many Spaniards ALWAYS clap at this (ever heard of "que se jodan los perroflautas"?).

        All I'm saying, in case you want to have a deeper look into what's going on, is that this feeling special because the cops beat you pisses people off.

        There are many polls claiming there’s a pro-independence minority, too. All there is in common with these polls is that, regardless of the results, the different between for and against is always very small. When you call for elections as a plebiscite, it’s a “for” or “against” matter and however you interpret the results is another story. In this case it was pretty clear what the story was so no “you can’t count PACMA as against” because that is basically what JxSi set out. And I agree with you that the only way to get a real idea is to hold a referendum, but none of this answers my question which is: best case scenario – for now- for pro-independence movements is a “yes” with a very small difference; you already made it clear that you don’t think belonging to Spain is a solution anymore, my question is… can a Catalan Republic happen with this panorama (socially speaking)? How would this half who don’t want to leave react to independence?



        Unlike that infamous textbook praising the former president of the Community of Madrid telling all the amazing stuff she did for Madrid and blaming the Civil War on the Second Republic and not Franco&Co... Campeador if we're gonna talk about indoctrination I think we can have a lot of fun!
        I believe you know more about the incidents in Murcia and other police brutality issues than me, and probably more than anyone else in these forums. I'd be glad if you to open a thread about these issues and share some information about that.

        Regarding the 2015 plebiscite JxC and CUP claimed they were the yes, PP, PSOE and C’s had a clear campaign for the no. The other parties didn’t play this game. And I don’t believe that everyone who doesn’t vote for pro-independence parties is against the independence that some media claimed, the same media who claimed that people who didn’t attend the pro-independence protests were anti-independence by default. There have been always pro-independence people among the Pirates, CatSiQueEsPot, Unió or the white vote.

        And it doesn’t even matter anymore. The government of Catalonia didn’t declare the independence after those elections even if many voters hoped so, they decided to organise the 1-O referendum instead to get more legitimacy and prove clear results. And the yes won again, and with more clear results. At least in towns were people could actually vote with normality the number people supporting the independence were higher than people who voted JxS and CUP in 2015. And like I said before, we don’t have any other way to prove this pro-independence majority. I can understand how many people wish for a “perfect referendum” with the support of the Spanish government and all parties, but this is not a real possibility.

        Montenegro became independent with a 55% for and a 45% against. Scotland had reversed results, and remained in the UK with a 45% for the independence and a 55% against. I’d say there was a clear division in both countries, and yet both respected the majority decision and both are “fine”. That’s how a democracy was supposed to work, but Spain is not one and we have been criminalised just to ask our right to vote.

        People who are against the independence might react badly, but that’s mainly because how the Spanish government and media has been radicalising and brainwashing them comparing the government of Catalonia with nazism. The pro-independence Catalans like me have been feeling oppressed by a foreign country for many years, and nobody cared about, until a 2010 we were completely ignored as if we didn’t even exist. Why would their wish to suppress our country be more important than ours to establish one? In my opinion, in the long run, we need a population transfer agreement so the Spaniards who live in Catalonia but hate it can go back to their country safely and easily.

        Spain has never been a real democracy but it lost more and more pieces of its mask, the list of proofs is massive and affects everything. They lost their legitimacy to rule Catalonia after destroying its already reduced Constitution in 2010, they didn’t try to seek a political solution for that and things only got worse after that. Now Spanish government deals with Catalonia as if it was a terrorist organisation or an enemy country, showing hostility and threats every day and rejecting any dialogue with anyone or even mediation.

        They already decided that they will not accept anything, but repression and punishment. They need it to win the elections, to hide their corruption and even to hide other issues. And even if the government of Catalonia gave up now it would be even worse. There wouldn’t be any tool to negotiate in the future and suddenly we would be both terrorists and cowards. The Spanish government would understand that the repression is the best way to deal with politics so it would be institutionalised permanently.

        Even if we didn’t want to become independent, right now we are being kicked out by an authoritarian state and its different institutions.


        ‎( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° ) I'm watching you

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Hades91 View Post
          Western democracy par excellence.
          You are have a free choice because we're democratic, but never have the idea to choose something different than we offered you for the choice.
          You're a smart man, sometimes.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by frozenmadness View Post
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catala...ferendum,_2017

            More than 90% votes for independence.

            I think many of these people have voted for independence only because of the excessive action of the Spanish government against the voting.

            Any comments?
            Yes, I have some comments but first I want to say, I didn't go through all 4 pages (as of my post) to read the opinions. I was wondering why you didn't offer your viewpoint on the subject. Any reason?

            Secondly, I am curious of who can honestly (or with assurances) say they are well read and knowledgeable about this topic?

            I think the situation is interesting because it has relevance with a number of other conflicts around the world - and discussions or potential developments of countries having division of a minority (possibly, ultimately wanting to secede/separate) desiring independence, sovereignty and/or autonomy (or all of them?).

            Imho, a government and through them, the majority of the citizens, right or wrong, will strongly resist the breakup of their country and it can lead to a violent refusal or resistance. Since it effects everybody, is it justified to resist to some extent or extreme or is violence in any form unjustifiable? We have precedents in history in which civil wars were fought to resist an entity or hierarchy of 'government' or upper level of bureaucracy, governance or authority. But, perhaps, it's justified when the authority moves well beyond it's legal and moral/ethical powers? However, shouldn't both parties attempt a peaceful compromise first before it escalates and it probably won't end well if one or both parties decide that violent struggle is necessary?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Tux1 View Post
              Secondly, I am curious of who can honestly (or with assurances) say they are well read and knowledgeable about this topic?
              I'm sorry if I sound pretentius, but me.
              Last edited by Eimeric; 10-11-2017, 05:56 AM.
              ‎( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° ) I'm watching you

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              • #52
                "I am curious of who can honestly (or with assurances) say they are well read and knowledgeable about this topic?"

                Did you know that the regional police (in the hands of separatists) refused to obey the judge order to close up the balloting centres for the unconstitutional "referendum" when the use of foce would have been minimal so that the National Police and the Civil Guard had to intervene when the situation was much more difficult to stop?

                Did you know that the separatists spread pictures of the police that in reality are not from the 1-O (in some of them even appear the regional police instead of the National Police and Civil Guard)?


                Did you know that some employees of hospitals have admitted that their supervisors ordered them to exaggerate the number and importance of the wound?

                Did you know that a separatist woman said that the police broke their fingers and finally she has to admit that it was a lie?

                Did you know that some school teachers forced the students to support the unconstitutional "referendum"?

                Did you know that some school teachers forced the students to confess if their parents are non-separatists?

                Did you know that the Spanish police found documents in which the separatist plot has been unmasked? : their plan is creating a political and economical chaos the bigger the better so that the EU has to intervene.

                Did you know that Puigdemont tried to buy a big amount of WAR WEAPONS some time ago and the Spanish Government avoided it?

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                • #53
                  Did you know that Campeador is unable to say a sentence that doesn't include a lie?
                  ‎( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° ) I'm watching you

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                  • #54
                    Yesterday, the purpose of Puigdemont (who announced an implicit independence and immediately after suspended it explicitly) was in reality to pay tribute to the Catalan painter, genius of Surrealism, Salvador Dalí (who, by the way, bequeath all his works to the Spanish state leaving the Catalan nationalists furious. Later, the Spanish government donate half of the works to the Catalan regional government).

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                    • #55
                      The only problem is that TVE didn't changed too much its list of programs the 1-O, so some people think the coverage was not enough. To be fair, we have to take into account that if the regional police (in the hands of the separatists) had obey the judge order to close up the balloting places for the unconstitutional "referendum",as it was their duty, the use of the force had been minimal and the illegal balloting wouldn't have taken place, so it was unforeseeable that the events would have been very relevant. But, for example, La Sexta programmed a follow-up, so, if the spectator had a especial interest on the subject, s/he had this option.

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                      • #56
                        HAPPY NATIONAL DAY TO ALL SPANIARDS ! (separatist included)

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by -Lauri-
                          In fact the TVE news did not cover police brutality at all, thus intentionally trying to deceive the public about what is happening. This is no better than what the governments do in Poland or Hungary.
                          Lauri, by the way, this referendum opens for me very broad field of possibilities. If you support the constitutionality of Spain, I'll remind you about the unconstitutional coup in the Maidan. If you support a referendum, you'll get the referendum in Crimea and some Ukrainian fascists as an example.

                          I would have retreated from this thread, if I were in your place.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by -Lauri-
                            In fact the TVE news did not cover police brutality at all, thus intentionally trying to deceive the public about what is happening. This is no better than what the governments do in Poland or Hungary.
                            https://youtu.be/_NmSHGtAGq8 France 05 April 2016
                            https://youtu.be/H6kE032DuXQ Germany 05 July 2017

                            Victims of science-fiction
                            Hang weights on blue ears.
                            If you don't believe go and listen
                            How sing the Nightingale warbling
                            Victims of science-fiction.

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                            • #59
                              Reporters Without Borders (RWB), or "Reporters Sans Frontières" (RSF) in French, denounce the pressure carried out by the regional government of Catalonia on the journalists critical with them,.. No wonder.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Campeador View Post
                                Reporters Without Borders (RWB), or "Reporters Sans Frontières" (RSF) in French, denounce the pressure carried out by the regional government of Catalonia on the journalists critical with them,.. No wonder.
                                RSF also denounce the pressure of Spain on the journalists in Catalonia...

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