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News from occupied Ukrainian territories (Crimea, Donbass, Lugansk) #4

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  • News from occupied Ukrainian territories (Crimea, Donbass, Lugansk) #4

    News from occupied Ukrainian territories (Crimea, Donbass, Lugansk) #3

    News from occupied Ukrainian territories (Crimea, Donbass, Lugansk) #2

    News from occupied Ukrainian territories (Crimea, Donbass, Lugansk) #1

  • #2
    Truth is not negotiable, - MH17 prosecutor on possible sanctions ease in exchange for aid with investigation

    Prosecutor General of the Netherlands Fred Westerbeke, who has been heading the international investigation team (JIT) into MH17 case, says full cooperation is the only way for the investigation into the Boeing crash, and the truth in the case is not negotiable.

    Answering a question by Novaya Gazeta reporter on what Russia could hope for "in exchange" for full cooperation with JIT, the prosecutor said he did not understand the question.

    He cited a U.N. resolution 2166, signed by Russia, which reads that all countries in the conflict area should assist the international investigation. Full cooperation is the only way for the investigation into the Boeing crash, and the truth in the case is not negotiable. This approach does not work in the Netherlands, Westerbeke said.

    If the Russian side has a person who knows what happened to MH17 (GRU Major General Sergey Dubinsky, call sign Khmury, who might have this information), the only option Westerbeke says could be offered is questioning Khmury and other people who know anything about the tragedy. Nothing could be offered in exchange, he said, including sanctions relief.

    Some in Russia might find it hard to believe, but the prosecutor's investigation in the Netherlands in independent, Westerbeke said. Politicians and officials do not mess with investigations, and prosecutors do not mess with politicians and officials, Westerbeke summed up.

    Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was shot down over the Donetsk region on July 17, 2014. 298 people died in the crash. The passengers were citizens of 10 countries. The majority of victims (196) were Dutch nationals. On July 21, 2014, the Russian MoD presented a series of fabricated and misleading information about the flight path of MH17, radar data, etc.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
      Again, this law brought us some (even if moderate) problems in the european institution. It also would hamper our relationships with neighbors.
      Life without problems doesn't exist. As you are a conformist you are constantly trying to please our neighbors, mostly Russia, and you don't want to remember that Ukraine has its own interests too. And they must be protected as well.

      Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
      And what good the law may bring us, can you explain?
      You mean that just because it wasn't written in Moscow it can't be good?
      Have you read the whole law or just Article 7?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
        I meant "nationalistic interest" not "nationalists". However, nationalists have significant influence. Paradoxically, they themselves not so influential, they have about 10-15% of popular support.
        Wow, what masterpieces They make me think there's total mess in your head.

        Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
        But the government is very weak (the governmental institutions have about 10% of popular support combined) and, therefore, must reckon with the nationalists as the significant force. Also, nationalists have important ability to mobilize their supporters on various occasions (protests, meetings, marches, etc.). To put it concisely "in the country of blind even a one-eyed is the king". When the majority of the population is marginalized and don't interested in the political life even a comparatively weak nationalistic force can have great influence.
        So, our government tries to appease nationalists by pro-nationalistic actions, such as the notorious "educational" law.
        OK. How many nationalists are there in the Ukrainian government? According to what you're saying they are so powerful ...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
          Life without problems doesn't exist. As you are a conformist you are constantly trying to please our neighbors, mostly Russia, and you don't want to remember that Ukraine has its own interests too. And they must be protected as well.
          Ok, what our interests in the particular case? And to be proud and independent you must have resources (as I pointed above). We are, on the other hand, totally dependent on the external support (particularly from Europe). And eurointegration is our main geopolitical aim and the pillar of our ideology, am I correct?

          Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
          You mean that just because it wasn't written in Moscow it can't be good?
          Have you read the whole law or just Article 7?
          I was under impression that we are not paying attention to russian whims for three years since the "revolution". From your point of view, all our recent legislation must be good. As for the article and the law as a whole, it's more or less the same as before.

          Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
          Wow, what masterpieces They make me think there's total mess in your head.
          I hoped that I explained my point of view pretty well. Again, when some group in the country has 10% of support among the population and the government has, for example, 1% of support, such group COMPARATIVELY is influential (ten times more than the government, in the example) even if the group isn't influential in the ABSOLUTE terms. Must I elaborate? Or your could grasp such complicated idea?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
            Ok, what our interests in the particular case? And to be proud and independent you must have resources (as I pointed above). We are, on the other hand, totally dependent on the external support (particularly from Europe). And eurointegration is our main geopolitical aim and the pillar of our ideology, am I correct?
            What particular case do you mean? If you are talking about the ""educational" law, then the Ukrainian interest is the promotion of the Ukrainian language. What is your interest I don't know With regard to resources I think you know (if you read the law) that 7% of the GDP will be allocated for the education. I think it's not a bad resource and a good step forward.

            Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
            From your point of view, all our recent legislation must be good.
            Can you give a link where I said that?


            Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
            I hoped that I explained my point of view pretty well. Again, when some group in the country has 10% of support among the population and the government has, for example, 1% of support, such group COMPARATIVELY is influential (ten times more than the government, in the example) even if the group isn't influential in the ABSOLUTE terms. Must I elaborate? Or your could grasp such complicated idea?
            That would be great. I mean your question about elaboration. It will be good if you give a link to the source of the numbers you posted. And answer the question I asked you earlier: how many nationalists are there in the government?

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            • #7
              Putin’s Plan for a Ukraine UN Force is a Poison Pill

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              • #8
                Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                What particular case do you mean? If you are talking about the ""educational" law, then the Ukrainian interest is the promotion of the Ukrainian language.
                При фразе "продвижение украинского языка" я почему то вспомнил о продвижении украинского языка на украинском подфоруме Интерпалс.
                Started by DarkGreenGarnet, 0 responses 4 views 0 likes
                и так две из трех тем. Я то ж помогу продвинуть малясь =)
                Last edited by VaselineBasket; 10-20-2017, 05:51 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post

                  What particular case do you mean? If you are talking about the ""educational" law, then the Ukrainian interest is the promotion of the Ukrainian language. What is your interest I don't know With regard to resources I think you know (if you read the law) that 7% of the GDP will be allocated for the education. I think it's not a bad resource and a good step forward.
                  Oh, it's good, but you know, we have a nasty habit to ignore laws demands. Honestly, I don't know how much we spent on education before the law and if the 7% of GDP is the large enough sum. But from my personal experience, I can tell you that a law's demand's can be simply ignored. I can elaborate, but it rather a boring topic. Concisely, not all which written in a law (especially about expenditures) are carried out in reality.

                  Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                  Can you give a link where I said that?
                  You wrote, "You mean that just because it wasn't written in Moscow it can't be good?". Our laws since 2014 hadn't been "written in Moscow" therefore, they must be good, am I correct?


                  Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                  That would be great. I mean your question about elaboration. It will be good if you give a link to the source of the numbers you posted. And answer the question I asked you earlier: how many nationalists are there in the government?
                  Again, it rather a broad topic. As for nationalists support, I can't give you a credible link right away. But it usually about 15% of the population (give or take). As for the president support, it's now significantly less than those given to Yanukovich http://news.gallup.com/poll/187931/u...eadership.aspx . If I'm not wrong, the support of the head of the government and the head of Verkhovna Rada is even less.Ok, let's suppose that president has 15% and other government institutions have about 20% combined. So, it's only about 30% of the population. It's more than nationalists have, but it nevertheless a rather limited support. So, the government must pay attention to the nationalist's demands.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                    Oh, it's good, but you know, we have a nasty habit to ignore laws demands. Honestly, I don't know how much we spent on education before the law and if the 7% of GDP is the large enough sum. But from my personal experience, I can tell you that a law's demand's can be simply ignored. I can elaborate, but it rather a boring topic. Concisely, not all which written in a law (especially about expenditures) are carried out in reality.
                    I hope you won't allow the violation of the law. You are a prosecutor after all.


                    Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                    You wrote, "You mean that just because it wasn't written in Moscow it can't be good?". Our laws since 2014 hadn't been "written in Moscow" therefore, they must be good, am I correct?
                    A great example of how you distort what your opponents say.

                    Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                    Again, it rather a broad topic. As for nationalists support, I can't give you a credible link right away. But it usually about 15% of the population (give or take). As for the president support, it's now significantly less than those given to Yanukovich http://news.gallup.com/poll/187931/u...eadership.aspx . If I'm not wrong, the support of the head of the government and the head of Verkhovna Rada is even less.Ok, let's suppose that president has 15% and other government institutions have about 20% combined. So, it's only about 30% of the population. It's more than nationalists have, but it nevertheless a rather limited support. So, the government must pay attention to the nationalist's demands.
                    Yet we were talking not about the President or the Parliament but about the nationalists and their influence upon the Ukrainian government and later about the support they have in the Ukrainian society. What's interesting at first you post specific numbers of their support and then you say that you don't a have credible link to prove those numbers. Whom are you trying to deceive? No doubt foreigners can believe you but not me, a resident of Ukraine.
                    Last edited by swmarmalade; 10-24-2017, 05:10 PM.

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                    • #11
                      "В 2016 году в Россию ездили 4,1 млн граждан Украины, в 2017-м больше - уже более 5,7 млн", (c) http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/389...zdyt-v-rossyui

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                      • #12
                        Umerov, Chiygoz arrive in Ankara, - Dzhemilev



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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                          I hope you won't allow the violation of the law. You are a prosecutor after all.
                          Good joke. The law "Of the procecutors office of Ukraine" is violated by the government (in articles about our salaries, but also in other examples). So, what stop the government to violate the norm about 7% of GDP on education?

                          Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                          Yet we were talking not about the President or the Parliament but about the nationalists and their influence upon the Ukrainian government and later about the support they have in the Ukrainian society. What's interesting at first you post specific numbers of their support and then you say that you don't a have credible link to prove those numbers. Whom are you trying to deceive? No doubt foreigners can believe you but not me, a resident of Ukraine.
                          I didn't post SPECIFIC or, rather, the exact numbers. You, as you say "distort what your opponents say". I wrote: "
                          Paradoxically, they (nationalists) themselves not so influential, they have about 10-15% of popular support
                          " and
                          "But the government is very weak (the governmental institutions have about 10% of popular support combined)".
                          If I'm not wrong "have about" means "около" или "приблизительно". Actually, I was wrong, the exact numbers of governmental support higher and nationalist's support unlikely higher than 10% (at least, by the ukrainian statistic in regards to political parties. the statistic in regard to far-right movements as such I didn't find). However, the main point nevertheless remains, the governmental support is weak and, therefore, the government inclined to appease radical groups, such as far-right ones. Recent examples, the rather mild actions against "Mihomaidan" near Verkhovna Rada where were many far-right radicals (a prudent attitude from the government, if you ask me) and reluctance (at least, at first) of harsh actions toward nationalists in the recent riot in Svyatoshinsky court, where the case against nazi Kohanivsky was under consideration.

                          Some statistic: https://www.slideshare.net/mResearcher/2017-76761481
                          Last edited by fox_aka_fox; 10-27-2017, 12:44 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                            Good joke. The law "Of the procecutors office of Ukraine" is violated by the government (in articles about our salaries, but also in other examples). So, what stop the government to violate the norm about 7% of GDP on education?
                            Then why do we need such prosecutors?

                            Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                            I didn't post SPECIFIC or, rather, the exact numbers.
                            Is 10-15% not specific numbers? Even with the word "about" in front of them?

                            Originally posted by fox_aka_fox View Post
                            Actually, I was wrong, the exact numbers of governmental support higher and nationalist's support unlikely higher than 10% (at least, by the ukrainian statistic in regards to political parties. the statistic in regard to far-right movements as such I didn't find). However, the main point nevertheless remains, the governmental support is weak and, therefore, the government inclined to appease radical groups, such as far-right ones. Recent examples, the rather mild actions against "Mihomaidan" near Verkhovna Rada where were many far-right radicals (a prudent attitude from the government, if you ask me) and reluctance (at least, at first) of harsh actions toward nationalists in the recent riot in Svyatoshinsky court, where the case against nazi Kohanivsky was under consideration.

                            Some statistic: https://www.slideshare.net/mResearcher/2017-76761481
                            So a weak government is appeasing more weak nationalists? Why would it appease not a stronger political movement but a weaker one?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post

                              Then why do we need such prosecutors?
                              Ask your beloved government. (yes, I reiterate it again and again, it's your BELOVED government because you support its policy). When Rada had appointed Lucenko, who has no legal education and was convicted of a crime you, I suppose, was not angry. So, it's YOUR president, YOUR Verkhovna Rada, YOUR cabinet of ministers. Ask them. And hope that they would oblige to the laws (if you really think so, you a very naive person).


                              Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                              Is 10-15% not specific numbers? Even with the word "about" in front of them?
                              If sum up the support of nationalistic parties, it's only about 5%. But you must keep in mind that not all nazi are ready to vote for the "official" political parties. They are marginals by nature, so you may add at least a 2-3% of them. So, yes, it's about 8%, give or take (again, I didn't find specific numbers).


                              Originally posted by swmarmalade View Post
                              So a weak government is appeasing more weak nationalists? Why would it appease not a stronger political movement but a weaker one?
                              Yes, the reasons I had provided above. Also, the given example (the law of education) not only about nationalist as such, it's about overall "svidomistic" policy. Patriotic rhetoric. Not only for far-right, but also for "an average patriot".

                              The majority of the population (if you look at statistic which I had provided) are very disappointed in the political life. They have no desire for further protests, many of them don't wish to go to elections. So, for the government, they are "budlo" which may be ignored. The nationalists, again, even if small in numbers are ready for the actions, including violent ones. In other words, one lion more dangerous than a thousand sheep. Am I clear?

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