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Greece about to demand 280 billion euro in war reparations from Germany

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  • #76
    What has any of this crap got to do with Greece claiming reparations from Germany?

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Machlud View Post
      What has any of this crap got to do with Greece claiming reparations from Germany?
      Read the OP - the OP states that Poland should join Greece. This of course introduces the notion of repatriations to Germany and is hence very much on-topic.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post

        If someone is squatting on your land, what you sue them for is not what they are getting as a financial benefit from their perspective but what you lose from your own.

        It's not Germany's problem that while Poland was "squatting" on German territory, it's Germany's problem that they did not have use of this territory during the period of occupation by Poland. Germany therefore has a right to sue for loss of income.
        Oh sure by all means please sue us for lucrum cessans if that's what you suggest, it will be fun There are several problems with such reasoning, but I won't spoil the surprise


        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        Then Poland has been making more than $100 billion income from that region. Say, $50 billion a year GDP since 1945 comes to $3 trillion over about 60 years that Poland has made from this region. Poland's problem that they made only $3 trillion verses over $10 trillion that the Germans had lost in that period,
        You don't "make money of the region". People do make money who just happen to live in this or that region. Any value you create with your work is not the same as compensation for destruction of your land which is pure money with no work involved. Your "calculations" are biased simplification that can be expected from you

        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        Although statements were getting made about "Poland being compensated for the loss of eastern territories", the reality is that the territories east of the so-called "Curzon Line" was another matter altogether with the Soviet Union and an issue dating from 1918-1921. As far as I can ascertain, there is no mention of the Curzon Line stuff at all in the official Germany Polish treaty documents.
        Because Stalin took it from us not Germans

        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        If you want to discuss the Curzon line, get talking with Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania...
        Why would I? It was just Stalin's retarded plan. Take eastern land from us, deprive us German war reparations, and pay for all this is just German land.

        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        Possession is 9/10ths of the law.
        Bullshit

        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        And you whined in your typical biased verbal masturbatory manner without offering countering and verifiable evidence. The most we got from you regarding the government of Poland at the time being controlled by Stalin
        It's not my job to teach you the basics of Polish history. If it's too much of a task for you, sure let me help
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...nment-in-exile
        THIS is legitimate Polish government. As you can see it existed in exile until the end of communism that is 1990


        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        So, instead of short spurts of verbal masturbation, tell us exactly why it is not the case.
        Told you already. It needs to be counted by the specialists. And not in ignorant simplificated way as you did. We need to count 93 billion euro received from EU, and subtract the value of eastern German land we received, etc etc


        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        So, give us the basis under international law why the Polish government in 1953-1954 was not legitimate - not wishful thinking about "governments in exile".
        Stop bullshiting me about international law, this is not even a matter of international law. Legitimace has two aspects, external and internal. While internationally "recognized" Polish communist government had absolute 0 legitimacy in Polish territories, among Polish citizens. 0.


        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        I've read a fair bit of Polish history - and Poland were also acting like total arseholes at times.
        Looks like you didn't. Or you're trying to twist things on purpose, which knowing your posts might also be the case


        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        What Poland got during different treaties in 1919 such as what they captured during their war with Germany during 1918-1919 was pretty much an identical process to what Poland gained and lost after WW2.
        Irrelevant

        Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
        Speaking of the 1918-1919 war between Poland and Germany, Germany might also consider compensation from Poland for ethnic cleansing performed by Poland. For that matter, the ethnic cleansing of Germans from 1945 onwards has barely been touched upon.

        In English we have a saying "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". Poland is a glasshouse with very brittle glass panes and the nationalists in Poland are throwing very big rocks around indiscriminately without thinking.
        Oh sure, plase present any verifiable evidence for any of these claims

        Comment


        • #79
          Jordan, your right. It's not the content he's concerned with. He's simply addicted to arguing even though he's bad at it. he likes to throw around that phrase "verbal masturbation" a lot which makes one wonder.

          Very interesting thread though. I didn't realize there was still this level of social and economic strain stemming from WWII.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Laura005 View Post
            Jordan, your right. It's not the content he's concerned with. He's simply addicted to arguing even though he's bad at it. he likes to throw around that phrase "verbal masturbation" a lot which makes one wonder.
            Said the one starting her reply with a complete offtopic answer...

            Comment


            • #81
              How would that be off topic exactly? I was responding to a point made directly in the previous post. Guess I needed to use the "quote" function. . . If anything, yours would qualify

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Laura005 View Post
                How would that be off topic exactly? I was responding to a point made directly in the previous post. Guess I needed to use the "quote" function. . . If anything, yours would qualify
                Stating that someone is not concerned with the content doesn't really have anythign to do with the topic, it rather looks like a grievance about aussie.

                Comment


                • #83
                  I find the hypocrisy of your response amusing. My post was in direct response to this:
                  "I've read a fair bit of Polish history - and Poland were also acting like total arseholes at times."

                  "Looks like you didn't. Or you're trying to twist things on purpose, which knowing your posts might also be the case"

                  Your post was. . .??? Not only did it "start off topic. . " it never made it to any substantive purpose. And now we're way out in left field so I hope the OP will accept my apology for feeling the need to respond and leave it at that.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Laura005 View Post
                    I find the hypocrisy of your response amusing. My post was in direct response to this:
                    "I've read a fair bit of Polish history - and Poland were also acting like total arseholes at times."

                    "Looks like you didn't. Or you're trying to twist things on purpose, which knowing your posts might also be the case"

                    Your post was. . .??? Not only did it "start off topic. . " it never made it to any substantive purpose. And now we're way out in left field so I hope the OP will accept my apology for feeling the need to respond and leave it at that.
                    No problem Laura. Be careful with Sancta_Lux, he's crybaby and gets triggered by slightest things

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Laura005 View Post
                      I find the hypocrisy of your response amusing. My post was in direct response to this:
                      "I've read a fair bit of Polish history - and Poland were also acting like total arseholes at times."

                      "Looks like you didn't. Or you're trying to twist things on purpose, which knowing your posts might also be the case"

                      Your post was. . .??? Not only did it "start off topic. . " it never made it to any substantive purpose. And now we're way out in left field so I hope the OP will accept my apology for feeling the need to respond and leave it at that.
                      What is the hypocrisy in my answer to you? I'm not complaining about being concerned with the content yet starting my response by a complete offtopic with my grievance against another user
                      Else I said you started your reply with an off topic, not that there was no off topic on this thread already or that off topic is fundamentally bad

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

                        No problem Laura. Be careful with Sancta_Lux, he's crybaby and gets triggered by slightest things
                        Yep, so hard not to be triggered with a jordan_rudess around, lel. Try something better, please...

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Sancta_Lux View Post
                          Stating that someone is not concerned with the content doesn't really have anythign to do with the topic, it rather looks like a grievance about aussie.
                          Exclusively off-topic posts from this poster can probably be summarised in one word - "butthurt". Perhaps the poster in question might wish to do other forum readers the courtesy of confining the butthurt comments to the thread from which the butthurt emulates...

                          I'm awaiting this poster's substantive comments regarding "outstanding" war reparations by Germany to Greece, as evident in the thread title, and also to Poland as per the OP

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            Oh sure by all means please sue us for lucrum cessans if that's what you suggest, it will be fun
                            It'd be good fun calculating the interest owed by Poland to Germany due to Poland's occupation of a highly industrialised and developed part of German territory.

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            There are several problems with such reasoning, but I won't spoil the surprise
                            I hope, for your sake, that it won't be a "surprise" of the type you've given us regarding "the real legitimate government of Poland"

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            You
                            Just in case you forgot - I'm not German, I'm an Australian being in a perverted sense entertained by a bunch of Polish ultra-nationalists trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            don't "make money of the region". People do make money who just happen to live in this or that region. Any value you create with your work is not the same as compensation for destruction of your land which is pure money with no work involved. Your "calculations" are biased simplification that can be expected from you
                            I'd actually check out what "lucrum cessans" means if I were you...

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            Because Stalin took it from us not Germans
                            Why would I? It was just Stalin's retarded plan. Take eastern land from us, deprive us German war reparations, and pay for all this is just German land.
                            What actually matters is what the treaty text says. As far as I can ascertain, nothing about the Curzon Line there...

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            Bullshit
                            Your usual verbal masturbatory spurt when trying to avoid substantiating a counter-opinion


                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            It's not my job to teach you the basics of Polish history. If it's too much of a task for you, sure let me help
                            Nor is it my task to teach you very basic reading comprehension skills. Private students pay me good money to do that... I'll make an exception to this for reasons of entertainment value:

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...nment-in-exile
                            THIS is legitimate Polish government. As you can see it existed in exile until the end of communism that is 1990
                            As I had said, you don't have very good basic reading comprehension skills.

                            From your very own link:

                            After the war, as the Polish territory came under the control of the People's Republic of Poland, a Soviet satellite state, the government-in-exile remained in existence, though largely unrecognized and without effective power. Only after the end of Communist rule in Poland did the government-in-exile formally pass on its responsibilities to the new government of the Third Polish Republic in December 1990.
                            Key words here are "largely unrecognised" and "without effective power". If that was not enough to actually attune you to reality, then of course it follows in more detail:

                            Meanwhile, the Polish government in exile had maintained its existence, but France on 29 June 1945,[6] then the United States and United Kingdom on 5 July 1945[6][33] withdrew their recognition. The Polish Armed Forces in exile were disbanded in 1945, and most of their members, unable to safely return to Communist Poland, settled in other countries. The London Poles had to vacate the Polish embassy on Portland Place and were left only with the president's private residence at 43 Eaton Place. The government in exile became largely symbolic of continued resistance to foreign occupation of Poland, while retaining some important archives from prewar Poland. The Republic of Ireland, Francoist Spain and the Vatican City (until 1979) were the last countries to recognize the government in exile, though the Vatican – through Secretary of State Domenico Tardini – had withdrawn diplomatic privileges from the envoy of the Polish pre-war government in 1959.
                            So the main players had already ditched recognition of the Polish government in exile by 1945 and after that only a couple of 2nd string countries such as Spain and Ireland along with the Vatican. Even the Catholic Vatican finally completely ditched the Polish government in exile by 1979.

                            Oh, you might want to read this:

                            https://www.ilsa.org/Jessup/Jessup12...overnment%20in %20exile.pdf

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            Told you already. It needs to be counted by the specialists. And not in ignorant simplificated way as you did. We need to count 93 billion euro received from EU, and subtract the value of eastern German land we received, etc etc
                            Even if my calculations of how much in reparations are out by 2 or three trillion dollars, it doesn't change the fact that if things went to their logical conclusion that Poland would now be owing an order of magnitude of money more to Germany than the 600-800 billion Euros that Germany owes Poland.

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            Stop bullshiting me about international law, this is not even a matter of international law. Legitimace has two aspects, external and internal. While internationally "recognized" Polish communist government had absolute 0 legitimacy in Polish territories, among Polish citizens. 0.
                            It's internationally recognised governments who can execute international treaties.

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            Looks like you didn't. Or you're trying to twist things on purpose, which knowing your posts might also be the case
                            More rantive verbal masturbation because you are unable to refute what I've said with evidence.

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            Irrelevant
                            Another verbal masturbatory spurt to try avoiding substantiating a counter-opinion...

                            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                            Oh sure, plase present any verifiable evidence for any of these claims
                            https://www.chronicle.com/article/Th...ity-You/132123

                            Oh, just wondering where your evidence for your points is when you are demanding evidence from me and others... You need to come up with better evidence than links you either have not read or have reading comprehension issues with..

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post

                              It'd be good fun calculating the interest owed by Poland to Germany due to Poland's occupation of a highly industrialised and developed part of German territory.
                              I hope, for your sake, that it won't be a "surprise" of the type you've given us regarding "the real legitimate government of Poland"
                              Aussieinbg I've once told you it's not a good idea for you to teach me about law, you will just make a complete fool of yourself. No, the surprise will be completely different, your legal petition in such case will never even start a proceeding, it will just be thrown to the garbage can
                              So called lucrum cessans is legal institution of PRIVATE law. Pro tip: that means you cannot really sue a country for that.
                              But let's treat your idea as a sort of intellectual exercise and assume that a country can sue another country based on private law. Two legal concepts of private law you might find intresting here would be:
                              - possesor in good faith
                              - usucaption

                              Let's leave it at that, and check what you can make out of these two

                              Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
                              Just in case you forgot - I'm not German, I'm an Australian being in a perverted sense entertained by a bunch of Polish ultra-nationalists trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
                              In other words Laura is right, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

                              Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
                              I'd actually check out what "lucrum cessans" means if I were you...
                              No need to. It's basics of law, 1st year of studies

                              Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
                              What actually matters is what the treaty text says. As far as I can ascertain, nothing about the Curzon Line there...
                              Yes that treaty says nothing about that, it's true.


                              Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
                              Nor is it my task to teach you very basic reading comprehension skills. Private students pay me good money to do that... I'll make an exception to this for reasons of entertainment value:
                              As I had said, you don't have very good basic reading comprehension skills.
                              From your very own link:
                              Key words here are "largely unrecognised" and "without effective power". If that was not enough to actually attune you to reality, then of course it follows in more detail:
                              So the main players had already ditched recognition of the Polish government in exile by 1945 and after that only a couple of 2nd string countries such as Spain and Ireland along with the Vatican. Even the Catholic Vatican finally completely ditched the Polish government in exile by 1979.

                              Oh, you might want to read this:

                              https://www.ilsa.org/Jessup/Jessup12...overnment%20in %20exile.pdf
                              Poor these students of yours. I know well that is was not recognized, because two faced westerners have quickly accepted anything that was pushed by Stalin and victorious army. But that is not the point. The Supreme Power in any nation always lies in the hands of the PEOPLE not its government. This "recognized" communist government had the right to stay there in the international forum as government, because it was accepted by other govenrments. . But it had no right at all to sign anything in the name of Polish Nation. For that you need to have legitimacy from the Polish Nation, granted to you in the elections.
                              This occupant government had been forcing its recognition within Polish territories with the support of Soviet Army only. Actually all treaties signed by communists 1945-1990 are not legally binding not only this one with Germans.


                              Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
                              Even if my calculations of how much in reparations are out by 2 or three trillion dollars, it doesn't change the fact that if things went to their logical conclusion that Poland would now be owing an order of magnitude of money more to Germany than the 600-800 billion Euros that Germany owes Poland.
                              Bullshit, read above


                              Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
                              It's internationally recognised governments who can execute international treaties.
                              Bullshit once again, read above

                              Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
                              More rantive verbal masturbation because you are unable to refute what I've said with evidence.

                              Another verbal masturbatory spurt to try avoiding substantiating a counter-opinion...
                              Yes, your ideas presented in this discussion are nothing else but verbal masturbation


                              Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
                              https://www.chronicle.com/article/Th...ity-You/132123

                              Oh, just wondering where your evidence for your points is when you are demanding evidence from me and others... You need to come up with better evidence than links you either have not read or have reading comprehension issues with..
                              This is your evidence? Hahaha once again feel free to sue Poland for that, the surprise will be even better than with lucrum cessans

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Sancta_Lux View Post
                                Maybe you didn't get my point : They have no legitimacy to ask anything from Germany for the WW2, neither have anybody else since we are all too young for that. In other words : It's too late.

                                As for your assumption,t he PC here is much more the one who is trying to ask people who did nothing to pay by making them feel ashamed for things their grand parents did, like any typical "leftists" you are you and jordan_whining always seeing everywhere. The fact is that the method used here is very much similar to those people from EUSSR are usign to make Europeans accepting migrants here; which is "ow you have been soooo evil with those poor people, you owe them so much! Pay your debt back by givign them whatever they want without any fucking logic and justice :<<<<"

                                Another fact is that aussieinbg has very well demonstrated the hypocrisy of jordan_rudess on this thread, who, I repeat, act like a big leftist or an angry Algerian/Turkish/whatever you want who want a western country that supposely owe them so much.
                                Germany paid Israel billions in reparations but you didn't protest or anything of the sort. But, there's suddenly a protest because one Polish person is requesting reparations. You're a hypocrite, plain and simple. Anyways, I think you were just playing dumb.

                                Comment

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