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Rape and Slavery in Islam - Totally legitimate and allowed!!!

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  • The big problem with early Arabic versions concerning any translations is that they're written without diacritics, and that way words can have very different meanings. When one is able to read such Arabic one can interpret these words, but when the words are translated the various meanings are lost and only the version chosen by the translator is left. Considering that, Arthur Arberry's The Koran Interpreted is the widely available scholarly Western standard text based on the assumption that the Qur'an should be interpreted rather than translated. There are some newer attempts to do the same, but I have no means to judge whether these are any better. In any case Arberry attempts to take the reader as close to the original as possible in English.

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    • Lauri: ""The big problem with early arabic versions concerning any translations is that they are written without diacritics and that way words can have many different meanings."
      Sunshine 87...Have you ever heard of a "philadelphia Lawyer" ? To me the koran seems to have been written by someone who was using Every method at his disposal to AVOID saying something on which he can be pinned down..
      Take for example the koranic explanation as to where the sun sets...The " prophet" was asked this question...He did not SAY his answer was from allah but he Implyed it by speaking as the prophet...
      The answer given by mohammet the prophet is that;;He HEARD from a USUALLY reliable source,which in this case was two horned creature that,,, the sun sets on the earth in a pool of murky water and there are people living there,,,,I E Witnesses !!
      So ! mohammet does Not say he got the info from allah he says he got it from the two horned creature who has witnesses to what he says....
      If the sun CAN set on the earth then it is clearly no bigger than our eyes perceive it to be...How does the sun get back to the east to rise again,all it has to do really is to reinforce the fact that in the time of mohammet arabs had very little idea of the heavens and the best mohammet could do was to give them a story which he could blame on the two horned creature AKA dhul kharnain if somebody found out that the sun Doesn't set on the earth....

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      • Originally posted by sunshine87 View Post
        Am i what people refer to as an Islamaphobe? So maybe reading this text will help me to answer those questions.
        I asked myself the same questions. I wanted to know and understand in detail what the basis of this religion is......unfortunately reading it didn't help to reduce my fears, the opposite was the case. At least afterwards I was able to ask some of the right questions and the answers I got made it even more scary.

        ....meanwhile I think "thank God that most Muslims don't live their religion literally although they all say so"

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        • Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
          immature pathetic 3rd rate trolling ad hominen attack removed
          about the 1,6 billion Muslims in this world, after all those Muslims themselves know nothing about their own religion.
          So an attempt at a pathetic highly personal ad hominen attack on me is the best argument you can come up with? Then you follow it with a whole bunch of other red herring logical fallacies all rolled into a few words.. appeal to authority, appeal to emotion, appeal to tradition and of course let us not forget the straw man. Naturally this list is far from complete.

          As for your assertion that could be expressed in the form "I am not Muslim, therefore I can't debate against Islam"... look at yourself.. you are not Muslim either and you are debating Islam. In this case you are debating in defence of it. However it would be completely wrong for me to state that "you are not muslim therefore you should not debate positively towards it".

          Judging from a lot of those who come here to debate for Islam and evidently identify as "Muslim" it seems they don't know all that much about their belief system. This is further supported by the reality that not that many Muslims have actually even read the Quran for example. The reality is that the vast majority of Muslims acquire that label "Muslim" by accident of birth, not through an active scholarly effort and don't know all that much about it beyond a few superficial things like how to mutter prayers or the basic procedure how to kill an animal during Eid.

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          • Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
            The big problem with early Arabic versions concerning any translations is that they're written without diacritics, and that way words can have very different meanings.
            this is merely one of many problems with the Quran. Also vowels are dropped out of words along with the daicritical marks on consonants. That gives you a lot of ways to play with the text, up to 40 different ones in places.


            Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
            When one is able to read such Arabic one can interpret these words, but when the words are translated the various meanings are lost and only the version chosen by the translator is left.
            Which brings the next cornerstone of Islamic theology into questoin - that Arabic is a perfect language. This one I think gets missed by just about every theologian and even by most critics of Islam. That is, if Arabic is such a perfect language, you would expect it to have one to one translation and accurate at that with every other language on the planet.

            However, it translates very poorly between languages, something often taken advantage of by those promoting Islam by softening the really nasty stuff in Classical Arabic.

            Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
            Considering that, Arthur Arberry's The Koran Interpreted is the widely available scholarly Western standard text based on the assumption that the Qur'an should be interpreted rather than translated. There are some newer attempts to do the same, but I have no means to judge whether these are any better. In any case Arberry attempts to take the reader as close to the original as possible in English.
            Pickthall is an attempt to be intellectually honest in translation. Even then he falls down on occasion due to the bias induced at being a convert to Islam. The pseudo King James Bible writing style and associated word use, idiom and grammar might throw off most readers - even native English speakers.

            There are a host of other problems with the Quran. The Quran doesn't even appear until somewhere like 685AD, some 50 years after Muhammad had died. Furthermore, the Quran demonstrates evolution in its text as evident in coin inscriptions, the Saana Manuscripts and even with inscriptions on or in buildings buildings such as the Al Aqsa mosque.

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            • Features of Islamophobia as defined by Runnymede Trust:

              - Islam is seen as a monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to change.
              - Islamic culture is seen as separate and "other." It does not have values in common with other cultures, is not affected by them and does not influence them.
              - Islamic ideology is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive, and sexist.
              - Muslims are seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism, and engaged in a Clash of Civilizations.
              - Islam is seen as a political ideology, used for political or military advantage.
              - Criticisms made of the West by Islam are rejected out of hand.
              - Hostility towards Islam is used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.
              - Anti-Muslim bigotry is seen as natural and normal.

              http://www.runnymedetrust.org/publications/17/32.html

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              • ıt is a shame that a woman could declare something like that. ı wonder how she was able to get the master degree.

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                • Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  Features of Islamophobia as defined by Runnymede Trust:
                  They were the ones pushing the pseudo-intellectual politically correct term "Islamophobia" even in 1997, insisting that "it was already common terminology" then. Bullshit!

                  Even the term "Islamophobia" is highly misleading. A phobia is a genuine fear of something based on real evidence.

                  As we have already seen on this thread, there are real and present reasons to fear Islam and its implementation as an ideology such as permission to rape, slavery, peadophilia and Female Genital Mutilation.

                  Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  - Islam is seen as a monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to change.
                  Islam, especially the Sunni component is pretty much monolithic in its dogma - Quran, trusted Hadiths and Muhammad's biographies. The differences between different groups tend to be more superficial, such as in specific dress and the relatively minor differences in interpretation of Sharia between different Schools of Fiqh.

                  Islam definitely is responsive to change as are all good cults and other political ideologies. At the core of its ideology, is being able to change according to the political situation on the ground, even to the extent of hiding real intentions and breaking oaths and treaties when required for Islam to have an advantage.

                  Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  - Islamic culture is seen as separate and "other." It does not have values in common with other cultures, is not affected by them and does not influence them.
                  It is very much "them and us" from their perspective - Islam discourages intermarriage between Muslims and non-Muslims and especially discourages marriages between Muslim women and non-Muslim men, promotes dress that especially and outwardly distinguishes its membership from those who are not Muslim and has a dogma which actively discriminates against non-Muslims.

                  Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  - Islamic ideology is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive, and sexist.
                  If you consider an ideology that promotes the beating of women, cousin marriage, peadophilia, Female Genital Mutilation, rape, slavery and a host of other things as being superior to the West, then the first part of that statement is correct.

                  However, for the bulk of non-Islamic humanity, these are barbaric, irrational, primitive, and sexist.

                  Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  - Muslims are seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism, and engaged in a Clash of Civilizations.
                  Most Muslims are not violent or outwardly aggressive. However, many if not most will invoke Nuremberg-type apologist defences or engage in religiously sanctioned deception and outright lying to justify these behaviours in other Muslims actually doing them.

                  Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  - Islam is seen as a political ideology, used for political or military advantage.
                  Runnymeade Trust issuing such a politically charged document about defining "Islamophobia" pushed by Muslims within its organisational structure is evidence that Islam behaves in that sort of manner.

                  Islam is not "merely" a religion... as any Muslim trying to preach to you will tell you that it is a complete way of life - including elements we normally associate in the political arena.

                  The Quran and the Hadiths themselves talk all about different ways of getting military and for that matter political advantage.

                  Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  - Criticisms made of the West by Islam are rejected out of hand.
                  Usually "rejected out of hand" because the criticisms levelled by Islamists at the West are repeated argumentum ad infinitum and usually without supporting evidence and not in a balanced manner..

                  When not rejected out of hand, you hear the usual scream of "Islamophobia" to try and censor debate through the backdoor of an ad hominen insult.

                  Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  - Hostility towards Islam is used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.
                  Many Muslims choose to exclude themselves from mainstream society because of their bigoted attitudes towards non-Muslims. Then they go on to whine about "Islamophobia".

                  Perhaps Muslims in general should address their bigoted attitudes towards non-Muslims which in turn cause the bulk of anti-Muslim sentiment in society.

                  Originally posted by -Lauri- View Post
                  - Anti-Muslim bigotry is seen as natural and normal.
                  Oh, something that almost makes sense and it is at the bottom of the list. This should have been at the top of the list, but the loony left Runnymeade Trust is all about political agenda. People are secondary playthings in this game.

                  Muslims are the real victims of Islam and shouldn't suffer discrimination on account of belonging to the Islamic cult that they are members of and can't easily escape.

                  Loony Left Wing "think tank". Responsible for push-marketing terminology like "Islamophobia".

                  Now the shorter and truthful meaning of "Islamophobia". Here it is....

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                  • Originally posted by mervemj View Post
                    ıt is a shame that a woman could declare something like that. ı wonder how she was able to get the master degree.
                    What was shameful about it? She is an Islamic theologian and she is merely stating what is in Islamic theology.

                    The Quran and the Hadiths are very explicit about permission being given to rape and to enslave.
                    Last edited by aussieinbg; 02-08-2016, 04:34 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by kevin_moore View Post
                      Nothing will surprise me about this "rellgion" anymore, just saw a video of a group of muslims savages beheading a guy i the middle of a street. Some were recording this with their smartphones, some were screaming allah akbar. After they finished they took his head and showed it to cameras.
                      But no, muslim crimes are "not relligiously motivated" at all ;]
                      Hi brother !
                      please Show me one verse or hadith in the Quran on in the sunna that they followed in this behaviour , if you find you can say that islam tought them this , but if you don't find it means that they are astray and they are following themselves , and it is not because they said allaho Akbar that means they are following the path of prophet muhammed peace be upon him and the teachings of islam and i give an exxample brother : the terrorist groups that killed in the name of islam read what prophet muhmmed peace be upon him said about them :

                      Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “There will be dissension and division in my nation and a people will come with beautiful words but evil deeds. They recite the Quran but it will not pass beyond their throats. They will leave the religion as an arrow leaves its target and they will not return until the arrow returns to its notch. They are the worst of the creation.

                      In the last days, there will be young people with foolish dreams. They will say the best of words in creation but they will pass through Islam just as an arrow passes through its game. Their faith will not go beyond their throats.


                      Thank you

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                      • Originally posted by Abdou16Alger View Post

                        Hi brother !
                        please Show me one verse or hadith in the Quran on in the sunna that they followed in this behaviour , if you find you can say that islam tought them this , but if you don't find it means that they are astray and they are following themselves , and it is not because they said allaho Akbar that means they are following the path of prophet muhammed peace be upon him and the teachings of islam and i give an exxample brother : the terrorist groups that killed in the name of islam read what prophet muhmmed peace be upon him said about them :

                        Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “There will be dissension and division in my nation and a people will come with beautiful words but evil deeds. They recite the Quran but it will not pass beyond their throats. They will leave the religion as an arrow leaves its target and they will not return until the arrow returns to its notch. They are the worst of the creation.

                        In the last days, there will be young people with foolish dreams. They will say the best of words in creation but they will pass through Islam just as an arrow passes through its game. Their faith will not go beyond their throats.


                        Thank you
                        An Armageddon Islamist nutter quoting a Hadiith from Dawad warning about the "end of the world" it seems

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                        • Originally posted by Abdou16Alger View Post
                          please Show me one verse or hadith in the Quran on in the sunna that they followed in this behaviour


                          source: http://sunnah.com/

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                          • Originally posted by Abdou16Alger View Post

                            Hi brother !
                            please Show me one verse or hadith in the Quran on in the sunna that they followed in this behaviour , if you find you can say that islam tought them this , but if you don't find it means that they are astray and they are following themselves , and it is not because they said allaho Akbar that means they are following the path of prophet muhammed peace be upon him and the teachings of islam and i give an exxample brother : the terrorist groups that killed in the name of islam read what prophet muhmmed peace be upon him said about them :

                            Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “There will be dissension and division in my nation and a people will come with beautiful words but evil deeds. They recite the Quran but it will not pass beyond their throats. They will leave the religion as an arrow leaves its target and they will not return until the arrow returns to its notch. They are the worst of the creation.

                            In the last days, there will be young people with foolish dreams. They will say the best of words in creation but they will pass through Islam just as an arrow passes through its game. Their faith will not go beyond their throats.


                            Thank you
                            Hi

                            This maybe

                            [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip." - Quran 8:12

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                            • Originally posted by sunshine87 View Post
                              Where would I find the earliest version of Quran.? I would like what I read to be as close to the original as possible. I need to start at the beginning. Today I realized a few things about myself. First of all I wasn't getting a full picture because I hadn't read the text. Secondly I had to look inward and ask myself why I had not read this text. Why was I treating it any differently than any other religious books? Am i what people refer to as an Islamaphobe? So maybe reading this text will help me to answer those questions.
                              You can find oldest Quran fragments in Birmingham, uk http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021 it's scientifically proven to be written when Prophet Mohammed was alive. Priceless and authentic. I got those parts translated by an Arabic speaking person and it's as same as most translations today.

                              There may be some differences in some translations which have heavy language to understand, but so far Abdel Haleem's translation is said to be among best translations by Oxford Press, it's easy to order http://www.amazon.com/The-Quran-Oxfo.../dp/0199535957

                              Best thing to learn Islam and Quran is by reading it yourself, instead of listening to it from Islamophobic freaks who twist things, intentionally mislead, take things out of context, generalize all muslims, cherry pick things, and make their own interpretations for their retarded Islamophobic rant.

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                              • Originally posted by BosphorusTaurus View Post
                                You can find oldest Quran fragments in Birmingham, uk http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021 it's scientifically proven to be written when Prophet Mohammed was alive. Priceless and authentic. I got those parts translated by an Arabic speaking person and it's as same as most translations today.
                                Complete beatup by Islamists desperately wishing for something to turn up to cover the highly embarrassing situation where there is a huge gap between when Muhammad died and when the first physical Quran turns up. Having many decades of embarrassing oral tradition, otherwise known as a game of Chinese Whispers, between when Muhammad was supposed to be doing it and when it actually finally was written down..

                                Time to burst you bubble about the above link. Later reporting is much more circumspect and casts significant doubt on this claim:

                                http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news...-world-9764059

                                http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/wo...gham.html?_r=0

                                "Proved"??? You are full of hyperbole as always.

                                Professor Thomas said tests by the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit indicated with a probability of more than 94 percent that the parchment dated from 568 to 645.
                                That the dating of the animal parchment it is written on, not the ink the Quranic text is written in. The hide could even date from the time before Muhammad was born. Given animal hide reuse (see below), there are doubts that the carbon dating has full significance, apart from establishing an upper bound date on the text from before Muhamamd - almost meaningless with regards to determining the exact age of the writing on it. It also doesn't establish any meaningful lower age either for the writing.

                                Saud al-Sarhan, the director of research at the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, said he doubted that the manuscript found in Birmingham was as old as the researchers claimed, noting that its Arabic script included dots and separated chapters — features that were introduced later. He also said that dating the skin on which the text was written did not prove when it was written. Manuscript skins were sometimes washed clean and reused later, he said.
                                Around that period, there was extensive reuse of such animal hides from there 7th to the 9th century, further casting doubt on the initial claims about that so-called Birmingham Quran dating from close to the time of Muhammad. Such reuse during this period was extensive due to the high cost of the material at that time.

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palimpsest

                                More interesting than a mere radioactive carbon dating test on that manuscript would be viewing it in different ultraviolent frequencies to determine the undoubtedly previous texts which were on that animal hide. If I had to speculate, my bet is that the material was probably looted for one of the numerous Christian monasteries ransacked and destroyed by islamists across the Middle East during the 7th to 9th centuries. It would be rather embarrassing it it turned up that previously there were 8th century Christian writings that had been washed off it before writing the Quranic stuff.

                                Originally posted by BosphorusTaurus View Post
                                There may be some differences in some translations which have heavy language to understand, but so far Abdel Haleem's translation is said to be among best translations by Oxford Press, it's easy to order http://www.amazon.com/The-Quran-Oxfo.../dp/0199535957
                                Don't give money for it, get it as a pdf. Pickthall is probably a much more honest translation.

                                Whatever translation, make sure you are aware of the order that the verses of the Quran are revealed. Sura123 had posted a great link to a page which gives them in order of revelation:

                                Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
                                and here the chronological system:
                                http://tanzil.net/wiki/Revelation_Order
                                This a absolutely vital to know because Quran verses contradict one another with monotonous regularity. Regarding the Quran, if a later verse contradicts an earlier verse then the later verse holds - called Naskh.

                                Sadly, all the "nice" verses in the Quran - that people preaching islam to non-Muslims love to quote - are abrogated by nasty verses. Note that the verses with the really vile stuff in Islam such as Suras 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9 and 48 and 49 - all the ISIS friendly verses - are revealed much later and tend to abrogate just about every "nice" verse.

                                Originally posted by BosphorusTaurus View Post
                                Best thing to learn Islam and Quran is by reading it yourself, instead of listening to it from Islamophobic freaks who twist things, intentionally mislead, take things out of context, generalize all muslims, cherry pick things, and make their own interpretations for their retarded Islamophobic rant.
                                oh, the things that Muslims do when preaching Islam?

                                Actually, best to learn about Islam from exMuslims. They know all about Islam and why they left this cult. Also, they have no agenda to get "converts" whereas Muslims think they are going to get the sexual delights of that afterlife brothel-like place in the sky called Jannah (heaven) promised by Muhammad including 72 Houris and lot of young boys for sex if they get converts. Read the Hadiths if you don't believe me.

                                And yet again that word, "Islamophobia"..

                                Last edited by aussieinbg; 02-08-2016, 11:00 PM.

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