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  • Originally posted by JulianaTuhi View Post
    Hence, it is not objective. Just prevalent delusions of a society.
    If your premise is true about no creator above mankind then I would agree with you. And that is the point where I disagree.

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    • Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
      exactly. With what you are saying that we can create heaven on earth.....and we should exactly do this.
      And like Supratik already has mentioned it doesn't answer the question "What is when this [a human life] is the only value and right a theorectical creator has given to us?"
      I am all for improving the world as much as possible. You can try to create a heaven on earth but human nature is not going to allow that. As long as free will exists then so will both good and evil and what to do with the evil? To a mother who has lost a child, having hope that her child is not lost forever is one kind of heaven and having a peaceful and fulfilling life while you are alive is another but both are good things.

      I am not sure I understand the question about life being the only value and right a creator has given? If you could elaborate then I will try to answer that one.

      Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
      no - because her rights are taken away, what is obvious to all people whose brain is not damaged by a religion. Nobody has the right to violate somebody elses rights. Empathy is born into humans and when this feeling is not blinded by weird rules of a religion or any other kind of ideology - which gives certain groups of people more rights than others - it is a self-regulating system.
      But where did that right come from if t was not given that that society? Just nature and a filling of empathy gives people rights? What about non-religious people who thinking nothing of violating rights and killing someone over $10? It is an interesting point of view.

      I do agree that certain aspects of morals are born into people....in that they can naturally sense that certain things are right or wrong and can be feel uneasy or extremely troubled by things they observe without it having to be conditioned or learned. A soldier that sees first combat and has to kill someone can tell you that taking a life is a hard thing to do something that can haunt them for the rest of their lives. But after a while, the more they kill the less it troubles them.

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      • Originally posted by Dark-Matter View Post
        If your premise is true about no creator above mankind then I would agree with you. And that is the point where I disagree.
        Of course there is no any "creator" above mankind. But morality is not objective regardless the existence of any sort of sky pixie.

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        • Originally posted by Danos View Post
          Atheists say that there is no God. What the Bible says about this statement?

          .......... They acted corruptly; they have done abominable works, there is none who does good.......
          .......... those who do terrible things, those who kill, those who sin sexually, those who do evil magic, those who worship idols, and those who tell lies.....
          .......... everyone who believes in him would not be lost but have eternal life."
          Interesting that you focus only on non-believers and not also on bad behaviour.

          What worries me about YOUR behaviour is this:
          • You give no consideration as to "WHY' people do not believe,
          • You ignore the other things... like telling lies, sin sexually etc.
          • You give no thought about people who believe in Jesus but how they can still behave badly.
          • You seem to be focussed on reward - Believe = Eternal life. But not on how one should behave in THIS life.
          • I wonder if you give any consideration to how many people you have turned away from God with your post.
          • I wonder if you asked God if your post is what He wanted. Or did you do it to boast your own ego?

          Sorry mate, you doing more harm than good.

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          • Originally posted by Dark-Matter View Post
            I am all for improving the world as much as possible. You can try to create a heaven on earth but human nature is not going to allow that. As long as free will exists then so will both good and evil and what to do with the evil?
            Evil will exist probably always at least to a certain minimum - I think that as well. As an optimist I think though that we are on a good way and diminished evil already quite a lot in comparison to the last 20-40 centuries in each case.

            Originally posted by Dark-Matter View Post
            To a mother who has lost a child, having hope that her child is not lost forever is one kind of heaven
            parents losing their children is not evil to me - except somebody killed the child on purpose of course. It is a destiny. Losing someone close for one or the other reason hurts always but is not evil. I don't believe that the idea the child is not lost forever is helpful and makes feelings of sorrow less painful. I did not notice a difference between believers and non-believers when they lost somebody very close like a young child for example.

            Originally posted by Dark-Matter View Post
            I am not sure I understand the question about life being the only value and right a creator has given? If you could elaborate then I will try to answer that one.
            What when there is a creator, but he created really only the visible world? and all imaginary things nobody has ever seen are really not there?

            Originally posted by Dark-Matter View Post
            But where did that right come from if t was not given that that society? Just nature and a filling of empathy gives people rights? What about non-religious people who thinking nothing of violating rights and killing someone over $10? It is an interesting point of view. why should somebody kill someone for money who
            From logic. Don't do to others what you don't want that others do to you. That is a basic ethic everybody knows and agrees, isn't it?


            Originally posted by Dark-Matter View Post
            I do agree that certain aspects of morals are born into people....in that they can naturally sense that certain things are right or wrong and can be feel uneasy or extremely troubled by things they observe without it having to be conditioned or learned.

            And what aspects of moral are not born into people in your opinion?

            Originally posted by Dark-Matter View Post
            A soldier that sees first combat and has to kill someone can tell you that taking a life is a hard thing to do something that can haunt them for the rest of their lives. But after a while, the more they kill the less it troubles them.
            of course. A soldier is a special case. I think there is a difference if he kills to defend lifes or to conquer something, but of course there is no black and white.
            In dir muß brennen, was du in anderen entzünden willst. What you wish to kindle in others must burn within yourself. [Aurelius]

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            • Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
              Evil will exist probably always at least to a certain minimum - I think that as well. As an optimist I think though that we are on a good way and diminished evil already quite a lot in comparison to the last 20-40 centuries in each case.
              I am not sure if it has actually diminished or if society has just become a lot better at controlling it. If a global disaster occurred and law enforcement ceased then I don't think you will see a better ratio of good to evil than in the past times.

              Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
              parents losing their children is not evil to me - except somebody killed the child on purpose of course. It is a destiny. Losing someone close for one or the other reason hurts always but is not evil. I don't believe that the idea the child is not lost forever is helpful and makes feelings of sorrow less painful. I did not notice a difference between believers and non-believers when they lost somebody very close like a young child for example.
              It is not evil, just a matter of perspective. Knowing I am going to wake up on the morning is better than knowing that I am going to cease to exist after I fall asleep. Eternal life is better than popping into existence for a nanosecond and then disappearing forever. Once you cease to exist, I do not see it as being all that different than never existing at all so, for me, only eternal life has any real meaning.

              Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
              What when there is a creator, but he created really only the visible world? and all imaginary things nobody has ever seen are really not there?
              Why would the visible world be all that he created? It is just what I can see with my senses but I do not assume that I can see everything that exists.

              Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
              From logic. Don't do to others what you don't want that others do to you. That is a basic ethic everybody knows and agrees, isn't it?
              Apparently not everyone or else the crime rates would not be as high as they are. I agree this is what people should do. But are you now saying that rights and morals are logic and not feelings? Why should I not do something to others if I can get away with it and it won't be done back to me? If we really our just a chain of molecules that's only purpose is to survive and reproduce then should we not be more concerned about eliminating the weak and genetically unhealthy from society rather than the conscious experience and rights of others?

              Originally posted by Suna123 View Post
              And what aspects of moral are not born into people in your opinion?
              We have the ability to sense that certain things are naturally right or wrong but consciousness is in the drivers seat and can decide to abide or ignore these. If you do something you know is wrong enough times you will eventually not know it is wrong any more. There is both he measure of right or wrong and the decision what to do with that measurement and also reasoning but there is nothing to force you to follow any morals.

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              • God only knows. What's happen to me and you.

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                • Originally posted by dmitri11 View Post
                  God only knows. What's happen to me and you.
                  You mean the subjective information stored within a photon?

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                  • Originally posted by RoyofSupratik View Post

                    You mean the subjective information stored within a photon?
                    If the thought is outside of reflection. What is the thought of the world? What is love?

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                    • Originally posted by RoyofSupratik View Post

                      You mean the subjective information stored within a photon?
                      But everything reflections ... What Hinduism says about the rank of reflection (rank of system)?
                      Last edited by dmitri11; 07-16-2017, 10:17 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by dmitri11 View Post
                        But everything reflections ... What Hinduism says about the rank of reflection (rank of system)?

                        In sanskrit, Philosophy is called 'Darshan', which actually means reflections. Any form of reflection is also one sort of perception of mankind.

                        Hierarchy or ranking system comes under the ability of our mind to differentiate/discriminate. Although the term discrimination sound negative, any logic, analysis, critical thinking is actually about discrimination and differentiation. From a mix of thoughts, your brain can select the core thought and reject all the unnecessary ones.

                        But yes, it is that what is called love whose only purpose is to clear away any form of discrimination & differences, although it tries to achieve the very same purpose that our brain does. And finally its all about game of power. If the power of love can overcome the power of brain, who are we to comment on it?

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                        • Originally posted by dmitri11 View Post
                          God only knows. What's happen to me and you.
                          Considering OP directed his remark to atheists, you might as well have said only Papa Smurf knows what will happen to you and me. The point of atheism is that he does not know. It is all fiction to me.
                          I hate forums

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                          • Originally posted by RoyofSupratik View Post


                            In sanskrit, Philosophy is called 'Darshan', which actually means reflections. Any form of reflection is also one sort of perception of mankind.

                            Hierarchy or ranking system comes under the ability of our mind to differentiate/discriminate. Although the term discrimination sound negative, any logic, analysis, critical thinking is actually about discrimination and differentiation. From a mix of thoughts, your brain can select the core thought and reject all the unnecessary ones.

                            But yes, it is that what is called love whose only purpose is to clear away any form of discrimination & differences, although it tries to achieve the very same purpose that our brain does. And finally its all about game of power. If the power of love can overcome the power of brain, who are we to comment on it?
                            You position the philosophy between power and love. Pain is a delusion/error or honor/credit?
                            The first death is inevitable? ... to mind games.
                            Last edited by dmitri11; 07-16-2017, 12:49 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by dmitri11 View Post

                              You position the philosophy between power and love. Pain is a delusion/error or honor/credit?
                              The first death is inevitable? ... to mind games.
                              Well, the usual verbal masturbation that allows very vague statements to be construed later on as making someone's opinion or prediction for the future retrospectively correct.

                              Same game goes on in religions, in political strands such as Marxism or in pseudo-intellectual bullshit like postmodernism.

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                              • Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post

                                Well, the usual verbal masturbation that allows very vague statements to be construed later on as making someone's opinion or prediction for the future retrospectively correct.

                                Same game goes on in religions, in political strands such as Marxism or in pseudo-intellectual bullshit like postmodernism.
                                You are hungry, so nervous ... God sends me a teacher. What do you say Hinduism?
                                Last edited by dmitri11; 07-16-2017, 02:58 PM.

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