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Based on your religion, would you support genetic engineering or not? Why?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post

    YOU are the one who brought up eugenics in your very first post when you said quite clearly,



    That’s exactly what eugenics is. Making us better, stronger, faster through genetic engineering. NOT through better nutrition, education and health! Through engineering! Scroll up and read what you wrote.

    Listen, I have no objection whatsoever...as long as I’m part of the master race...

    Wait a minute, I say that's a part of gene engineering but not that's all to gene engineering, why don't you re-read my first post. Perhaps it's my English, but my first point about gene engineering is that it could make human life better, I talk about curing disease first. And then I said, not to mention about bla bla eugenics bla bla, but focus on to make human have better quality of life.

    And it's not for one race, but for human species in general.

    Second, I also ask in my reply to you, so what's happen with eugenics in the past, that makes you say that it's not a good idea to support gene engineering today? You haven't answered that.

    Because today is different than the past. Now, people are more aware about human rights, about all race have same right, no one race superior compare to other race and so on. So we're living in a different society, with different cultures and values. That's in the side of social and culture. In the science and technology aspect, we know much more compared to the past. We know that there should be enough variation in a species to ensure its survival. We know more about genes and DNA, how it work, etc compared to the past.

    So just saying that in the past it failed horribly, is not a good enough argument.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post
      God doesn't exist except in adult and children fairytales.
      I'm not so sure about that one . About the rest of your post, well I guess so.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Han1977 View Post
        I'm not so sure about that one . About the rest of your post, well I guess so.
        Absolutely no evidence for "God". The view of "God" propagated in any religion on the planet is furthermore based on bullshit given that all religions themselves are demonstrably wrong on account of their highly contradictory natures and the fictional basis of their dogmas.

        To formulate any policy about genetic engineering on the basis of "God" in any sort of manner is delusional thinking.

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        • #19
          Well, it's your opinion and I respect it. For me, the lack of evidence isn't a reason to say for sure that God doesn't exist. Maybe He/She exist, it's just that the nature of his/her being make it impossible for us human to sense it.

          Just because me as human can't see/hear/detect/perceive/etc, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I would say that human perception are very limited. Probably there are many things exist, which we don't know or see little evidence of their existence, simply because our limited perception.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Han1977 View Post
            Don't you think living in mad max world would be exciting, lol?
            Eugenics wouldn't bring you to a mad max world at all... And living in Mad Max world would be kinda awful, you also would be crying if this happened.

            Originally posted by Han1977 View Post
            my first point about gene engineering is that it could make human life better, I talk about curing disease first. And then I said, not to mention about bla bla eugenics bla bla, but focus on to make human have better quality of life.
            Eugenics is probably the best way to reach your point...
            • the science of improving a population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.
            Originally posted by Han1977 View Post
            And it's not for one race, but for human species in general.
            Refer to history, there is often a "master race" when it come to eugnics. In the wonderful world of Brave New World, you have the master race called Alpha (with amasterrce in it called Alpha+); and all the other (Beta, gamma, delta and epsylon). where the last ones are not evne considered as humans anymore.

            Originally posted by Han1977 View Post
            Second, I also ask in my reply to you, so what's happen with eugenics in the past, that makes you say that it's not a good idea to support gene engineering today? You haven't answered that.
            The Nazi (Germany and Sweden) and the Japaneses at the same time (I think they also did it just after Fukushima). I think USA did it too for retarded or something like that.
            In a less obvious way but more recently, there are one in China and in Singapore too. In a very obvious way : North Korea.

            Originally posted by Han1977 View Post
            Because today is different than the past. Now, people are more aware about human rights, about all race have same right, no one race superior compare to other race and so on. So we're living in a different society, with different cultures and values. That's in the side of social and culture. In the science and technology aspect, we know much more compared to the past. We know that there should be enough variation in a species to ensure its survival. We know more about genes and DNA, how it work, etc compared to the past.
            Wanna bet ? There are still many racists in this world, there is still a black sheep and people tend to think that being more beautiful/smart/tallest than the other make them superior and they are partially right since societies give them right in many ways.

            Last edited by Sancta_Lux; 01-03-2018, 11:29 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Han1977 View Post
              Well, it's your opinion and I respect it. For me, the lack of evidence isn't a reason to say for sure that God doesn't exist.
              Lack of evidence isn't a reason to say that Satan is nicer than God, that there is a pink unicorn in my garden that at only chocolate which look like Kim Kardashian or Justin Bieber, that somewhere in orbit around the earth, thre is a pokemon called mew flying and that the water you drink everyday give you a cancer are wrong or don't exist ?

              It's still better to deny any form of god because of the lack of evidences than doubting or affirming its existence.

              And to answer your original question, if there is a catholic, fondamentally he will be totally against such heresy and burn you, lelele, because accoridng to catholic church, eugenics is a deny of the individual and many things like that.

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              • #22
                I will feel like God in my viens.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Han1977 View Post


                  ...I also ask in my reply to you, so what's happen with eugenics in the past, that makes you say that it's not a good idea to support gene engineering today? You haven't answered that.

                  Because today is different than the past. Now, people are more aware about human rights, about all race have same right, no one race superior compare to other race and so on. So we're living in a different society, with different cultures and values. That's in the side of social and culture. In the science and technology aspect, we know much more compared to the past. We know that there should be enough variation in a species to ensure its survival. We know more about genes and DNA, how it work, etc compared to the past.

                  So just saying that in the past it failed horribly, is not a good enough argument.
                  So you say that genetic engineering will benefit all humanity equally? Then, how is it that drug companies don’t distribute their products at low or no cost to people throughout the poorest countries? And how is it that industrialized agriculture has only made its way to Africa (for example) for crops that rich countries want? Tell me why in Bangladesh (for example) women and children work underpaid in dangerous conditions to make my clothes and shoes? Since we already have the ability to make the lives of people in Third World countries better, why don’t we?

                  Why do you think mankind will suddenly become altruistic? Or do you think this New Altruism will be engineered into future humans?

                  Listen, I have no doubt that genetic engineering will come about...for the benefit of powerful, advanced countries. I have no problem with that because I’m already living in a privileged society. If genetic engineering can make those Bengali women & children stronger, faster & healthier, maybe the price of my clothes and shoes will go down.



                  PS...and my wife would like to pay less for her chocolate and diamonds too.

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                  • #24
                    I am glad this was posted in the religion section because this issue is rooted in religion though veiled by science.

                    On the basis of my understanding of the bible, I am against genetic engineering which seeks to use DNA from non-human life to enhance human ability. I am not against mechanical devices such as artificial limbs. I have given this some thought over the last few years and have determined for myself that if it comes to saving me by giving me a pig’s heart to replace my human heart or modify my genes with genes from an animal, I will chose death. I am 60 now so it is a serious consideration.

                    The end of the story relates back to the beginning.

                    God did not create disease in humanity. In the beginning he warned Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is not a tree he created. The result of doing this, he said, would be death. He didn’t say it would be instant death, just death. What was immediate was separation from God. According to the bible, this is how death entered humanity. Death is most often the result of disease and I happen to believe that “old age” itself is a disease like many others. I call this the Sin Matrix whereby all life on earth was subjected right down to the molecular level.

                    God sent us Jesus Christ to remedy the human condition through his sacrifice on the cross. The promise of his salvation is that for those of us who chose faith in Christ, we will have new bodies that will not be subject to death. We have this promise in 2 Corinthians 5:1-5:

                    “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.”

                    The result of salvation in Christ is a spiritual new birth (a seed within us) with the promise that it will be worked out in the physical. (Those who think we will be wispy spirits sitting on clouds playing harps all day misunderstand or misrepresent. Yes, we will have physical bodies). I call this the Messiah Matrix. The Messiah Matrix will over-write the Sin Matrix not only for us but for all life presently subject to death. Romans 8:21 promises that our salvation will impact all of creation (animals and plants):

                    “because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”

                    We will all become vegetarians as in the original creation and animals will no longer be subject to human or animal cruelty. Killing a bull will be as abominable then as killing a human being. That is the promise and end point of the Bible. Not hell but heaven. Heaven is open to ALL but it depends on a choice of allegiance.

                    I further believe that all those stars and galaxies are for us to reach in those promised new bodies. Heaven is boring? Only to those who lack imagination. When the bible speaks of the Heavens, it is speaking of all those stars and more. They are out there waiting for the fulfillment of our salvation. For now, we Christians await the outworking of our salvation.

                    For those who do not accept the bible, genetic engineering SEEMS like a godsend. All deception and seduction SEEMS good until one bites. Every caught fish was seduced by the worm not seeing or understanding the hook. I chose the small “g” deliberately because it is not sent by God but by a usurper and deceiver. In Genesis 3:5, Satan deceived Eve with the lie that if she and her husband chose his way “knowledge of good and evil” they too would become like gods. Some translations change it to say “be like God” but the word there is elohim (plural). Satan is acknowledged by the new testament as “the god of this world.” So for those of us who are Christian, we are in fact in rebellion to the “god of this world.” We have changed our allegiance from this world to the next and it is for this reason the New Testament calls us sojourners and aliens in this present world. We are passing through.

                    In Genesis, Satan is referred to as the serpent. The word there is Nahash which means “shining one”. Appearing as light does not necessarily mean good but you don’t deceive people with darkness do you? In the Genesis account there is a passage many ignore. Every word is scripture (in the original texts) are pregnant with meaning and significance. In Genesis 3:15 it says that God put “enmity” between Eve’s SEED and the Nahash’s (translated serpent) SEED. If this life purely a spiritual conflict, why is there mention of “seed”. Satan has seed? The bible is even more mysterious because in Genesis chapter 6 it tells us that the “Sons of God” mated with human women and produced giants, men of renown – the heroes of myth. These “Sons of God” were angelic beings who chose rebellion but the text tells us they took, and were able to, take a physical form. The prophet Daniel (2:43) also warns of a mixing of seed:
                    “And whereas you saw iron mixed with miry clay, THEY shall MINGLE themselves with the SEED of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.”

                    I am sure all will agree that in 545 BC there was no genetic engineering – in practice or in concept - so how could Daniel even conceive of something like the mingling of seed, unless it was inspiration? To anyone before the 20th century this passage must have seemed like something completely crazy.

                    At this time, we believers are not 100% clear on who this “THEY” are but we suspect is it other dimensional beings presenting themselves as UFOs. Many of us are expecting “aliens” to show up with miracle cures for humanity and an anti-Christian salvation. So take note that the appearance of aliens in our skies will not shatter Christian faith. It will confirm it more strongly and we will not be baptizing aliens. Salvation is for human beings only.

                    Seed is DNA. The great battle of the ages that the Bible is presenting is the battle to keep humanity from corrupting our DNA. This is why the Law of Moses spends so much time legislating against “mixing”, especially in the sexual domain. This is why the New Testament speaks of “fleeing” sexual sin. The risk of impacting human health and human DNA is high.

                    Some no doubt object to the idea of “eternal life” because they see only the current human condition. Yet even science fiction writers predict eternal life once humanity has advanced in knowledge. Many science fiction writers have already predicted the mixing of human DNA with that of “others.” Spock is human and “Vulcan” (Vulcan was a “god”). They are conditioning humanity to the acceptance of this DNA manipulation.

                    The issue of eternal life is how this will be achieved? It appears more and more as the world progresses that this will be achieved through genetic engineering and bio-mechanical enhancements (cyborgs?). The book of revelation (9:6) predicted over 2,000 years ago that humanity will achieve eternal life on its own:
                    “And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”

                    The movie Transcendence is all about the Singularity and how humanity can achieve eternal life. It’s not a fantasy film. It’s founded in current scientific endeavour and direction. The movie also makes it clear that this path includes the loss of individuality to be replaced by a collective mind.

                    The issue is not that eternal life will not be achieved but HOW it will be achieved. Will you chose this eternal life through man’s achievements with the help of the god of this world? Will you allow your DNA to be changed to achieve eternal life? The bible warns that that choice will bring a curse and an eternal punishment. Repudiating one’s humanity is the ultimate sin against God as it is unforgivable. Will you instead chose eternal life as promised through Christ and wait patiently for his promise to be fulfilled even if that means enduring, for now, sickness?

                    My choice is Christ.

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                    • #25
                      You're way off topic, BilliusZetay what with your Aliens posing as gods arriving in their flying saucers...

                      Anyway, humans tampering with the genetic code to make us "better" is probably like sending a plumber to fix a Swiss watch. Nothing good will come of it but it should make for interesting news stories. The show must go on...



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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post
                        You're way off topic, BilliusZetay what with your Aliens posing as gods arriving in their flying saucers...
                        A "theory" about as valid as "Jesus" or "God" with about the same amount and type of supporting evidence. You should not be too critical of him

                        Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post
                        Anyway, humans tampering with the genetic code to make us "better" is probably like sending a plumber to fix a Swiss watch. Nothing good will come of it but it should make for interesting news stories. The show must go on...
                        Human beings "tamper" with genetic code whenever they drink, smoke or expose themselves to radiation.

                        You also "tamper" with genetic code whenever you make a choice about who to have sex with - determining the proportion of which genes exist in a population.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by aussieinbg View Post

                          A "theory" about as valid as "Jesus" or "God" with about the same amount and type of supporting evidence. You should not be too critical of him
                          Hahaha! Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows! Here we have a guy who claims Jesus never existed now defending a Christian! LOL

                          Do I hear the word "incongruent"...?!


                          Human beings "tamper" with genetic code whenever they drink, smoke or expose themselves to radiation.

                          You also "tamper" with genetic code whenever you make a choice about who to have sex with - determining the proportion of which genes exist in a population.
                          You obviously don't understand the difference between tampering and nature...

                          Anger has a way of robbing one of common sense...


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post

                            Hahaha! Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows! Here we have a guy who claims Jesus never existed now defending a Christian! LOL

                            Do I hear the word "incongruent"...?!
                            Not at all... in fact his viewpoint is much more relevant than yours. Even though he was talking utter and complete shit, at least he was able to provide some sort of support for his viewpoint instead of the completely unsubstantiated and empty statements we see from certain people.

                            Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post
                            You obviously don't understand the difference between tampering and nature...
                            And you don't seem to understand simple punctuation - such as my putting quotes around the word "tamper", just like that. We've already seen that in a certain previous post...

                            Hint: the quotes have something to do with the fine element of negativeness verses positiveness of the word.

                            Human beings are part of nature. So change in genetic code is natural - whether consciously planned or otherwise.

                            As for the word tamper... one part of the definition is "to interfere". It is much more commonly used to describe intentional modification leading to negative effects but can also be used to describe unintentional changes leading to such.

                            So, drinking alcohol, smoking and other such things means that humanity is tampering with the genetic code - unintentional for sure. On the other hand, for example, exposing agricultural seeds to radiation to try and develop advantageous mutations is also "tampering" with "God's work".

                            Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post
                            Anger has a way of robbing one of common sense...
                            One need not become angry at all about irrational stupidity. All one has to do is clinically dissect it.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by BilliusZetay View Post
                              I am glad this was posted in the religion section because this issue is rooted in religion though veiled by science.

                              *1) On the basis of my understanding of the bible, I am against genetic engineering which seeks to use DNA from non-human life to enhance human ability.

                              ....

                              *2) God did not create disease in humanity. ...
                              Hi, I read your reply, it is exactly why I create this topic in the first place, because I met many Christians, who have similar view to you.

                              But I have at least two questions after I read your post. Basically I'm most interested in genetic engineering to fix faulty DNA in human, that cause genetic disease, such as auto-immune disease, cancer, thallasaemia, etc. I personally interested in finding a cure for my Rheumatoid arthritis.

                              So based on that, the genetic engineering I have in mind, it isn't the one you're against with. I don't seek a transplant from non-human DNA to enhance human ability, I'm more interested with how genetic engineering could fix a faulty DNA. So it's more about fixing faulty human DNA, from a variation of human DNA that cause disease, to another variation of human DNA that don't cause such disease.

                              What do you think genetic engineering in such way?

                              The second question is, if God did not create disease, then that means, faulty DNA in some of us, which cause genetic disease, isn't God design, so what's wrong with fix such faulty genes and free some of us from disease that is caused by gene mutation, etc?

                              Thx

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