Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Queer Theology, Sexuality & The Bible.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by RoyofSupratik View Post

    ​I am sure if a gay reads the bible with absolute faith, he will surely find God's assent about homosexuality and even LGBT. He just need to avoid opinions of self righteous priests and their organised institutions.
    Well if you see any ambiguity in this...

    "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

      Well if you see any ambiguity in this...

      "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
      If you only observe the structure of the law but not the spirit itself, i am not sure how you will become the greatest legal representative. Anyway Paul the apostle already held that you guys are no longer under this law.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by RoyofSupratik View Post

        If you only observe the structure of the law but not the spirit itself, i am not sure how you will become the greatest legal representative. Anyway Paul the apostle already held that you guys are no longer under this law.
        Sorry I'm legal positivist. The "spirit of of law" is just a nonsense concept of 0 practical value. What is written is written and if it's not written then there's no problem as well.
        Btw if you claim any apostle held anything, it would be good to back it up with relevant quote.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by RoyofSupratik View Post
          ...Anyway Paul the apostle already held that you guys are no longer under this law.
          Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
          ...if you claim any apostle held anything, it would be good to back it up with relevant quote.
          "Paul the apostle" as Roy calls him said that a Christian is no longer under the Law in a variety of places, most notably in the book of Romans, chapter 7. You'll have to read the whole chapter to get a sense of what is being said. When you've done that, come back and ask your questions. The Book of Romans is an exegesis of Habakkuk 2:4, the just shall live by his faith. Specifically, all of Romans defines who "the just" are.

          A correction: Homosexual acts are sinful, not homosexuality itself. Lying is sinful, not the temptation to lie. Stealing is sinful, not the temptation to steal, and so on. The Bible holds that everybody is born into a sinful nature...some will be violent, some lustful, some theives...whatever. (Most of us are just self-righteous!) So it is quite possible to be a genuine Christian and a homosexual, a genuine Christian and a liar, a genuine Christian and a theif, etc. As long as the temptation to sin is not acted upon, no sin is commited. For the genuine Christian - the "just" - forgiveness of sins is possible because they are not under the Law. For everyone else, forgiveness of sins is according to the Law...a Law impossible to keep.





          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post



            "Paul the apostle" as Roy calls him said that a Christian is no longer under the Law in a variety of places, most notably in the book of Romans, chapter 7. You'll have to read the whole chapter to get a sense of what is being said. When you've done that, come back and ask your questions. The Book of Romans is an exegesis of Habakkuk 2:4, the just shall live by his faith. Specifically, all of Romans defines who "the just" are.

            A correction: Homosexual acts are sinful, not homosexuality itself. Lying is sinful, not the temptation to lie. Stealing is sinful, not the temptation to steal, and so on. The Bible holds that everybody is born into a sinful nature...some will be violent, some lustful, some theives...whatever. (Most of us are just self-righteous!) So it is quite possible to be a genuine Christian and a homosexual, a genuine Christian and a liar, a genuine Christian and a theif, etc. As long as the temptation to sin is not acted upon, no sin is commited. For the genuine Christian - the "just" - forgiveness of sins is possible because they are not under the Law. For everyone else, forgiveness of sins is according to the Law...a Law impossible to keep.




            Excuse me but I know what is in my relligious book. When atheists talk that something is in the Bible it's always good to ask for precise verse beause most often times they don;t know what they are talking about.
            And no, I don't have any questions. Such interpretation of the Romans is ridiculous. So maybe let's stop using Ten Commandments as well because Paul said that we died to the law. People... please stahp

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

              Excuse me but I know what is in my relligious book. When atheists talk that something is in the Bible it's always good to ask for precise verse beause most often times they don;t know what they are talking about.
              And no, I don't have any questions. Such interpretation of the Romans is ridiculous. So maybe let's stop using Ten Commandments as well because Paul said that we died to the law. People... please stahp
              Atheists don't know what they are talking about when it comes to the Bible, that is true. I doubted RoyofSupratik could ever give a biblical reference so I just provided it because I know the Bible backwards, so to speak. My interepretation of Romans is purely literal. I'm using what is called the gramatico-historical interpretation. This is also called the Literal or Normal interpretation because it is the normal way to interpret the text! Other interpretive schools are the Mystical and the Allegorical. Confusion in interpretation is always caused by mixing interpretive methods.

              Nothing that I wrote was unbiblical. Temptation to sin is not sin.



              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post

                Atheists don't know what they are talking about when it comes to the Bible, that is true. I doubted RoyofSupratik could ever give a biblical reference so I just provided it because I know the Bible backwards, so to speak. My interepretation of Romans is purely literal. I'm using what is called the gramatico-historical interpretation. This is also called the Literal or Normal interpretation because it is the normal way to interpret the text! Other interpretive schools are the Mystical and the Allegorical. Confusion in interpretation is always caused by mixing interpretive methods.

                Nothing that I wrote was unbiblical. Temptation to sin is not sin.
                I didn't really refer to what you wrote about sin. I meant that interpretation "Paul said something so we're not longer under the whole Old law" is ridiculous.

                But if you want my asnwer to the rest of your post, well you can divide homosexuality from homosexual act if you wish, but to me it's one and the same. Homosexual acts make homosexuality, it's hard to be gay just watching gay porn on redtube...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

                  Well if you see any ambiguity in this...

                  "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
                  So it's okay if the man has a sexual relation with a man, as long as, it isn't similar with a man-woman sexual relation?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Han1977 View Post

                    So it's okay if the man has a sexual relation with a man, as long as, it isn't similar with a man-woman sexual relation?
                    Nope
                    It's more about that any sexual relation man-man instead with a woman as it should be is not ok

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

                      I didn't really refer to what you wrote about sin. I meant that interpretation "Paul said something so we're not longer under the whole Old law" is ridiculous.
                      It's not just Paul who said it. Jesus said it as well: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. What does the Law require as punishment for sin? Answer: death and hell. Is the Law still in force today? Yes. The Law is still in force today and everyone born is under the Law and must respect it under penalty of death and banishment to hell.

                      Since you as a Christian still sin daily, how is it that you are promised eternal life and escape from hell? Answer: because in your case the Law's requirement of death and hell was paid for by someone else. That guy - Jesus - fulfilled the Law for you. Can the Law touch you now? No.


                      But if you want my asnwer to the rest of your post, well you can divide homosexuality from homosexual act if you wish, but to me it's one and the same. Homosexual acts make homosexuality, it's hard to be gay just watching gay porn on redtube...
                      You are probably misunderstanding me. If I am tempted to steal your wallet full of money, that is not a sin. It only becomes a sin when I actually take your wallet and steal your money. A lot of former criminals who have become Christians still are tempted but they resist their temptations...temptations to steal, to lie, to be violent, to pedophelia, whatever. It doesn't matter. Changing a life-long sinful nature is impossible so the temptation is always there. Sometimes they fail and fall for the temptation. It just gets easier and easier to resist as you practice resisting it. It's like exercising a muscle.


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post

                        It's not just Paul who said it. Jesus said it as well: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. What does the Law require as punishment for sin? Answer: death and hell. Is the Law still in force today? Yes. The Law is still in force today and everyone born is under the Law and must respect it under penalty of death and banishment to hell.

                        Since you as a Christian still sin daily, how is it that you are promised eternal life and escape from hell? Answer: because in your case the Law's requirement of death and hell was paid for by someone else. That guy - Jesus - fulfilled the Law for you. Can the Law touch you now? No.
                        Jesus said it as well but said in in completely different context - it was to Jews who were rejecting his word and accusing him. But yes, I agree, the law is still in force. In my faith it's Church role to determine which laws precisely are in force and which are not.


                        Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post
                        You are probably misunderstanding me. If I am tempted to steal your wallet full of money, that is not a sin. It only becomes a sin when I actually take your wallet and steal your money. A lot of former criminals who have become Christians still are tempted but they resist their temptations...temptations to steal, to lie, to be violent, to pedophelia, whatever. It doesn't matter. Changing a life-long sinful nature is impossible so the temptation is always there. Sometimes they fail and fall for the temptation. It just gets easier and easier to resist as you practice resisting it. It's like exercising a muscle.

                        I understand. And ask how can someone be gay without performing gay acts? You cannot. I don't think Bible means gays in celibacy.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                          I understand. And ask how can someone be gay without performing gay acts? You cannot. I don't think Bible means gays in celibacy.
                          Bible wrote about the sin of a man having sex with another man.

                          Gay and their likes, talk about their sexual preference, where they have this desire to have sex with similar sex, rather than the opposite sex. I think that's what RogerCarmel talk about. So if you have sexual interest to similar sex, it still not a sin, as long as you don't act upon it. So you can be a man who are sexually attracted to another man, but not sinning, as long as you don't act upon your desire.

                          ADD:: homosexual or heterosexual, I believe, by definition is about people's sexual preference, not the act itself. So a man who only sexually attracted to another man, would be a gay. Whether he/she ever act upon his desire or not.
                          Last edited by Han1977; 01-13-2018, 08:51 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Han1977 View Post

                            Bible wrote about the sin of a man having sex with another man.

                            Gay and their likes, talk about their sexual preference, where they have this desire to have sex with similar sex, rather than the opposite sex. I think that's what RogerCarmel talk about. So if you have sexual interest to similar sex, it still not a sin, as long as you don't act upon it. So you can be a man who are sexually attracted to another man, but not sinning, as long as you don't act upon your desire.

                            ADD:: homosexual or heterosexual, I believe, by definition is about people's sexual preference, not the act itself. So a man who only sexually attracted to another man, would be a gay. Whether he/she ever act upon his desire or not.
                            But it's a complete abstract situation, how do you imagine being attracted to let's say another guy and not act upon it? In theory yes it is possible, and then yes it is not a sin, but in practice happens very rarely.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

                              Jesus said it as well but said in in completely different context - it was to Jews who were rejecting his word and accusing him. But yes, I agree, the law is still in force. In my faith it's Church role to determine which laws precisely are in force and which are not.
                              The Law is still in force for everyone except those who have a saving faith in Jesus. For these Christians, the Law's requirements have been paid and they are no longer under the Law. They are under no obligation to keep the Law. If you want to keep some laws, you do so out of devotion to God, or out of respect to your denomination (your Church)...or perhaps out of deference to a weaker Christian but there is no biblical requirement for the Christian to keep any religious law.

                              Read Romans, chapter 14 for further light on this matter.

                              I understand. And ask how can someone be gay without performing gay acts? You cannot. I don't think Bible means gays in celibacy.
                              The same way a life-long theif who becomes a Christian eventually stops stealing. The same way a life-long pathological liar who becomes a Christian stops lying...and so on. We are all born twisted in some way...some are natually attracted to drugs, others to illicit sex, others to violent behaviour, still others are proud, self-righteous, condescending...whatever sinful nature a person is born with will stay with him all his life. Overcoming the temptation to sin is the answer to your question. So, a gay Christian may give into his temptation now and then but he will not want to be in the sin, and the sinwill not give him pleasure. This is why Paul said,

                              So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being, I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members...

                              Paul struggled with sin and so does any genuine Christian. Christians struggle because they delight in God's law as Paul puts it. Other people don't struggle...they just don't care because nothing is sinful to them.







                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post

                                The same way a life-long theif who becomes a Christian eventually stops stealing. The same way a life-long pathological liar who becomes a Christian stops lying...and so on. We are all born twisted in some way...some are natually attracted to drugs, others to illicit sex, others to violent behaviour, still others are proud, self-righteous, condescending...whatever sinful nature a person is born with will stay with him all his life. Overcoming the temptation to sin is the answer to your question.
                                So you actually believe that gay can be healed of being gay or something?

                                Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post

                                So, a gay Christian may give into his temptation now and then but he will not want to be in the sin, and the sinwill not give him pleasure. This is why Paul said,
                                So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being, I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members...

                                Paul struggled with sin and so does any genuine Christian. Christians struggle because they delight in God's law as Paul puts it. Other people don't struggle...they just don't care because nothing is sinful to them.

                                There is nothing about intent, or wanting to be in sin in the Bible verse about homosexuality. If you have homosexual sex, you are sin sin, that's all.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X