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  • #31
    Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

    But it's a complete abstract situation, how do you imagine being attracted to let's say another guy and not act upon it? In theory yes it is possible, and then yes it is not a sin, but in practice happens very rarely.
    I'm not agree with you. As someone who is introvert and grew up with low self esteem, I'm used to being attracted to pretty/cute/sexy girl/woman and not act upon it.

    In my opinion, attraction/desire and acting upon the attraction/desire, is completely two different things.

    Who never have an urge to punch someone in the face, at least once in their lifetime? But most people spend their lifetime without ever punch another person.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Han1977 View Post

      I'm not agree with you. As someone who is introvert and grew up with low self esteem, I'm used to being attracted to pretty/cute/sexy girl/woman and not act upon it.

      In my opinion, attraction/desire and acting upon the attraction/desire, is completely two different things.

      Who never have an urge to punch someone in the face, at least once in their lifetime? But most people spend their lifetime without ever punch another person.
      This situation is called being "closet gay" I guess? So yes, according to Bible only being attracted without having sex is not sin.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

        So you actually believe that gay can be healed of being gay or something?
        I think for every Christians, be them homo or hetero, the struggle is to transform lust into love. Bible never against love, be it man loves another man, man loves woman, etc. It is lust that isn't accepted by Bible.

        In Paul words, it's about spiritual desire vs fleshly desire. Fleshly desire is the one who bring sin and resulted in death.

        So in my personal opinion, a hetero who cling on lusting over woman, rather than learning how to love, is just as bad as a gay who cling on having sex with another man. A gay who learn to love, not to lust over, is just as good as a hetero who learn to love and not to lust over. And once you learn to love someone truly, you will be able to love all without boundaries.

        My definition of true love:

        If you love a person and that person become disabled, would you still love that person? If it is a true love, you will. If that person got into accident which ruined his/her face and body, would you still love that ugly, smelly person? If it's true love then you will. If by some accident or disease, that person's personality change into an obnoxious person, would you still love that person? If it's true love then you will.

        At some point then the question become, if you can love someone who is so damn ugly, so damn obnoxious, so damn smelly, etc. then how hard it is for you to love every man/woman as you love yourself?

        There is nothing about intent, or wanting to be in sin in the Bible verse about homosexuality. If you have homosexual sex, you are sin sin, that's all.
        Yes, when the bible talk about homosexuality, it is the act that is abominable. Which is exactly why (I think) RogerCarmel keep on saying, just don't act upon it and you're not sinning. I don't see how his post, contradict your above post.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Han1977 View Post

          I think for every Christians, be them homo or hetero, the struggle is to transform lust into love. Bible never against love, be it man loves another man, man loves woman, etc. It is lust that isn't accepted by Bible.

          In Paul words, it's about spiritual desire vs fleshly desire. Fleshly desire is the one who bring sin and resulted in death.

          So in my personal opinion, a hetero who cling on lusting over woman, rather than learning how to love, is just as bad as a gay who cling on having sex with another man. A gay who learn to love, not to lust over, is just as good as a hetero who learn to love and not to lust over. And once you learn to love someone truly, you will be able to love all without boundaries.
          No. Bible is not against sex in general, Bible condemns perverted kinds of sex, e.g. sex with animals, incest, adultery, gay sex, etc etc
          It's not really about what you're saying.

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          • #35
            Yes, bible doesn't condemn sex. However, what I get from reading the bible, is that Christianity is trying to shift people attention/focus from worldly/fleshly desire to spiritual desire. In my understanding, within the bible world view, an action is matter less, than the spirit behind the action. A man lusting over another man, probably just as worse as a man lusting over another man's wife.

            A man love another man, just as good as a man love a woman. Jesus loves John. David loves Jonathan. And all that's fine.

            You may have different opinion and I won't argue. Above is totally my own perception, my personal interpretation, of what the Bible says.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Han1977 View Post
              Yes, bible doesn't condemn sex. However, what I get from reading the bible, is that Christianity is trying to shift people attention/focus from worldly/fleshly desire to spiritual desire. In my understanding, within the bible world view, an action is matter less, than the spirit behind the action. A man lusting over another man, probably just as worse as a man lusting over another man's wife.

              A man love another man, just as good as a man love a woman. Jesus loves John. David loves Jonathan. And all that's fine.

              You may have different opinion and I won't argue. Above is totally my own perception, my personal interpretation, of what the Bible says.
              And as long as we're on the ground of "personal opinions" I'm fine with yours. But from the OP I get impression that he wants Christian's acceptance for homosexuality. Which cannot happen. Same thing, Catholic acceptance for homosexuality is impossible to happen. And how all of you people interpret what's in the Bible is not really my thing

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              • #37
                Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

                And as long as we're on the ground of "personal opinions" I'm fine with yours. But from the OP I get impression that he wants Christian's acceptance for homosexuality. Which cannot happen. Same thing, Catholic acceptance for homosexuality is impossible to happen. And how all of you people interpret what's in the Bible is not really my thing
                I think the discussion in major denomination in Christian, is not about whether homosexuality is a sin or not. It is a sin. Period.

                But the discussion is more about, how church should deal with the individuals in that group. The Catholic as far as I know, with the new pope, is not talking about whether the sexual act is a sin or not, it is a sin, no discussion about it. But should you allow them to accept the communion, should you allow them to join the mass, etc.

                So when they talk about acceptance, it's not a discussion about accepting the sexual behavior, but the person who are in this group. How you deal with them? If it's something genetic, would it be fair to condemn them, etc.

                I could be wrong though, it's been years and years since I went to church.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Han1977 View Post

                  I think the discussion in major denomination in Christian, is not about whether homosexuality is a sin or not. It is a sin. Period.

                  But the discussion is more about, how church should deal with the individuals in that group. The Catholic as far as I know, with the new pope, is not talking about whether the sexual act is a sin or not, it is a sin, no discussion about it. But should you allow them to accept the communion, should you allow them to join the mass, etc.

                  So when they talk about acceptance, it's not a discussion about accepting the sexual behavior, but the person who are in this group. How you deal with them? If it's something genetic, would it be fair to condemn them, etc.

                  I could be wrong though, it's been years and years since I went to church.
                  Wait a minute. There are no gay detectors at the entrance to the church. So they are allowed to join the mass. As for communion, well in Catholicism you cannot do this until you're in sin. So I think they may use confession and get redemption and then accept communion same as everybody else. So no problem here. The problem lies in leftist demands of acceptance from Catholics for homosexuality. Which just cannot happen.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

                    So you actually believe that gay can be healed of being gay or something?
                    Homosexuality isn’t an illness that can be healed. An analogy might help you understand: if you have a cold, you are sick and will eventually get better but if you are born without arms, you are not sick. You are born with that condition. End of the analogy.

                    There are ministries that help Christians who struggle with sexual sins such as addiction to pornography, homosexuall lust and such.

                    There is nothing about intent, or wanting to be in sin in the Bible verse about homosexuality. If you have homosexual sex, you are sin sin, that's all.
                    I never said anything different! I keep saying that temptation to sin is not sin. Again, if I’m tempted to steal your wallet, have I sinned? If you answer “Yes” then there is something you don’t understand about sinning, the sinful nature and probably salvation as well.

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                    • #40
                      Hmmm...I wonder, why premarital sex is accepted by many Christians and far from uncommon but homosexuality seems to be such a huge offence? Aren't both of these considered sins in the eyes of god?
                      Last edited by Moreorless; 01-14-2018, 04:51 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Moreorless View Post
                        Hmmm...I wonder, why premarital sex is accepted by many Christians and far from uncommon but homosexuality seems to be such a huge offence? Aren't both of these considered sins in the eyes of god?

                        Nobody has been discussing what is acceptable to "many Christians" and "far from uncommon." If you want what is common and acceptable to most nominal Christians, then pre-marital sex, homosexuality, reincarnation, abortion, divorce and sex-change operations are all OK...among other things.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by RogerCarmel View Post

                          You are wrong about this. Jesus accepted the inerrancy of Scripture as well as its immutability when he said, "It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." A more colloquial translation of this passage renders it even clearer for the modern reader: The sky will disintegrate and the earth dissolve before a single letter of God's law wears out. So, sorry, but homosexuality is a sin covered by the Law. Christian churches are justified in calling it a sin.



                          Don't go tripping over the flowers in the carpet...there is no esoteric meaning to Paul's writings on homosexuality. Paul clearly states that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination.


                          you are absolutely right

                          This is absolutely forbidden in my religion as well.

                          even so many people in pompei turned to stone

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tomm96 View Post

                            you are absolutely right

                            This is absolutely forbidden in my religion as well.

                            even so many people in pompei turned to stone

                            We were not discussing religion. And Pompei has nothing to do with this subject.

                            You and Moreorless have not been paying attention.

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