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  • #16
    Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

    I don't really know what you mean by "identifying with the shifting borders". The borders are only open since enacting The Schengen Agreements (1995) and before that everyone was just sitting in his own country. The passport was required to travel from one European country to another.
    No we were not. Schengen just made it easier to cross borders, but mass tourism in Europe far predates the Schengen Agreement. There remain countries in Europe that are not participants in the agreement, that receive many tourists. And being a citizen of a BeNeLux country, I was born in a place where such borders effectively had been abolished even before I was born.

    I consider myself Dutch, but also European. I am from Holland, but I also consider myself Dutch.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Boliches View Post

      No we were not. Schengen just made it easier to cross borders, but mass tourism in Europe far predates the Schengen Agreement. There remain countries in Europe that are not participants in the agreement, that receive many tourists. And being a citizen of a BeNeLux country, I was born in a place where such borders effectively had been abolished even before I was born.

      I consider myself Dutch, but also European. I am from Holland, but I also consider myself Dutch.
      You speak from your perspective I speak from mine. We've entered EU in 2004

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      • #18
        Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
        You speak from your perspective I speak from mine. We've entered EU in 2004
        I wonder what perspective, or even 2004 has to do with:

        Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
        The Schengen Agreements (1995) and before that everyone was just sitting in his own country.
        Apparently, between 1995 and 2004, they must also just have sat at home. The countries that became EU members at a later time also signed the Schengen agreement at that time. The countries that signed the Schengen Treaty before joining the EU remain outside the EU.

        It is a fact that mass tousim existed before Schengen. Schengen facilitated mass tourism. It did not cause it.

        It also is a fact that countries that became member of the EU and signed the Schengen Treaty after 1995 were already visited by Western Europeans. Not even all people were just sitting at home in Warsaw Pact countries, before that time. People from Warsaw Pact countries were travelling, mostly to other countries of the pact. Already in 1980, we met Poles who were on holiday in Bulgaria. They, very likely, will have been members of the political elite and their friends. But they were not just sitting at home waiting for the Schengen Treaty to be signed.

        Much of what happened in 1989 near Sopron and at the German embassy in Prague would not have happened if people from East Germany were not holidaying in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Only after those tourists found the mazes did others follow them.

        Also, there are examples where the opposite has happened. Last Sunday, I returned from a trip to Bosnia. If you want an example of how irrelevant Schengen can be; this is a country where a single Yugoslav and later Bosnian identity has eroded through time. I doubt whether the EU or Schengen contributed to forgeing a single identity in Northern Italy, Scotland and Catalonia. Separatist movements have gained momentum after the signing of those treaties.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Boliches View Post

          I wonder what perspective, or even 2004 has to do with:



          Apparently, between 1995 and 2004, they must also just have sat at home. The countries that became EU members at a later time also signed the Schengen agreement at that time. The countries that signed the Schengen Treaty before joining the EU remain outside the EU.

          It is a fact that mass tousim existed before Schengen. Schengen facilitated mass tourism. It did not cause it.

          It also is a fact that countries that became member of the EU and signed the Schengen Treaty after 1995 were already visited by Western Europeans. Not even all people were just sitting at home in Warsaw Pact countries, before that time. People from Warsaw Pact countries were travelling, mostly to other countries of the pact. Already in 1980, we met Poles who were on holiday in Bulgaria. They, very likely, will have been members of the political elite and their friends. But they were not just sitting at home waiting for the Schengen Treaty to be signed.

          Much of what happened in 1989 near Sopron and at the German embassy in Prague would not have happened if people from East Germany were not holidaying in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Only after those tourists found the mazes did others follow them.

          Also, there are examples where the opposite has happened. Last Sunday, I returned from a trip to Bosnia. If you want an example of how irrelevant Schengen can be; this is a country where a single Yugoslav and later Bosnian identity has eroded through time. I doubt whether the EU or Schengen contributed to forgeing a single identity in Northern Italy, Scotland and Catalonia. Separatist movements have gained momentum after the signing of those treaties.
          OMG, seriously? One more time but slowly. Before Schengen agreements travelling was also possible but with passport. After Schengen - no passport needed. Border control - no border control.
          Nothing unsual that you've Poles in Bulgaria in 1980, Bulgaria was communist country and it wasn't much problem to go there for holidays for Polish people.
          Schengen = open borders. Without Schengen travelling was still possible.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post

            OMG, seriously? One more time but slowly. Before Schengen agreements travelling was also possible but with passport. After Schengen - no passport needed. Border control - no border control.
            Nothing unsual that you've Poles in Bulgaria in 1980, Bulgaria was communist country and it wasn't much problem to go there for holidays for Polish people.
            Schengen = open borders. Without Schengen travelling was still possible.
            So, before Schengen everyone was not just sitting in his own country. Q.E.D.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Boliches View Post

              So, before Schengen everyone was not just sitting in his own country. Q.E.D.
              So you mean this? But of course travelling was possible, I was just trying use vivid imagery to explain _loki that we really are separate countries. I didn't mean that we couldn't travel or something

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              • #22
                Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                I was just trying use vivid imagery to explain _loki that we really are separate countries.
                That part was correct. That part, I did not refute. Where the differences are quite clear to us, you and I seem quite similar to people from other continents.

                Originally posted by jordan_rudess View Post
                I'm looking for cute Russian girl. Write me ;***
                Very similar ....
                Last edited by Boliches; 06-27-2018, 07:29 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by _loki View Post
                  I read this article http://www.dw.com/en/macedonia-whats...ame/a-42450141, and I was curious how Europeans indentify. For example, I am from the US. Growing up, I was told I am German. I spoke to a German man one time, and he said, "You are not German. You are an American. If you lived in German, that is who you would be to them." I am an American of European decent. My last name is Dutch / German. I speak English. I am not half this or that; I am a complete human being. Dunno
                  what Europeans have in common is a history full of wars with eachother. Our old monarchies are all relatives of one another more or less inclusive the Russian ones.
                  What we also have in common is the fight with the cold weather in most of the area. Winters are long and dark, seasons very distinctive, being threatened by starvation and freezing is what made us work hard and long days for the last couple of thousand years.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Suna123 View Post

                    what Europeans have in common is a history full of wars with eachother. Our old monarchies are all relatives of one another more or less inclusive the Russian ones.
                    What we also have in common is the fight with the cold weather in most of the area. Winters are long and dark, seasons very distinctive, being threatened by starvation and freezing is what made us work hard and long days for the last couple of thousand years.
                    i wasnt really talking about a shared identity. i was curious about say how a breton identifies considering brittany is french territory. or how a german native to konigsberg identifies in kalingrad. although it is interesing that the EU is trying to highlight a common european identity.

                    im tying to understand the topic from the perspective of the six flags over texas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_flags_over_Texas. i think mexico is a large influence considering we border mexico, and hispanic people are a majority (or soon). but mostly, there is the sense that texas was a soveriegn nation. i would say that has a large impact on the texan mind. i know some people like confederate heritage... but mostly, i would say we are a state in the US, a rich, large state.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Suna123 View Post

                      What we also have in common is the fight with the cold weather in most of the area. Winters are long and dark, seasons very distinctive, being threatened by starvation and freezing is what made us work hard and long days for the last couple of thousand years.
                      No, I deeply disagree with that, it doesn't work for south and West Europe... In Brittany we dont know the cold at all, in France cold is relatively rare except in the moutains, south is especially warm, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy almost don't know what winter is, especially in the south part of these countries. Moreover France and Brittany especially are very good countries, I mean, they arepretty generous when it comes to arables land.



                      Originally posted by _loki View Post

                      i wasnt really talking about a shared identity. i was curious about say how a breton identifies considering brittany is french territory.
                      I think I answered this quesiton, for Brittany especially I would say that, first of all it was a Kingdom and the a duchy, that it had special right untill the Revolution, that our culture is typically celtic and that people are very much into the sea (while France is historically focusing on the land), our language is pretty close to the one of the Wales, and then in some extent Irish while French is a latin language, we also have our own music styles, again close to the other celtic ones with bagpipes.
                      Talking about the sea, it mostly due to the fact France was already too big at the time, for Brittany I mean, so Bretons were naturally looking at the west rather than the east, it's still tru nowaday, when you see some famous "sailors" of France, they often come from Brittany, like Eric Tabarly, Jacques Cartier, Robert Surcouf, Yves de Kerguelen...

                      There are many differences like that even if they tend to fade away with time and french policy, there is also the genetic difference which isn't really noticeable physically speaking, like the haplogroupes, Bretons belongs to celtics ones, unlike english but like scottish, Irish, Welsh and others celtic people.
                      Last edited by Sancta_Lux; 07-02-2018, 12:22 PM.

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